"Yes, your friend may be a rapist!" - really?

[Kheldarson]

Khel: Men aren't being treated as potential criminals by our legal, economic or religious systems. That women treat them as potential criminals in their personal lives is their right. You do not have the right to the company of women. No woman is required to smile at you, or strike up a conversation, or help you carry your things into your apartment. You not getting these things is not an infringement of any rights you have. If you have a problem with this, work on making 'men' more trustworthy- your hurt feelings do not make women safer.

You keep addressing me like I'm a guy. Again. I'm female.

Is that because you can't fathom how a woman might be advocating that we treat every person we meet, male or female, as a person rather than a potential criminal?

I agree that our society needs work on this issue. I agree that rape is underreported and under prosecuted.

I do not agree that we should then be advocating that we destroy the trust we have in each other as individual people simply because some of those individuals might be bad people.

I've asked several times if you think we should cut off from specific groups because of the associated crime rates. You've yet to respond. So I'll ask again: does it seem reasonable to say I refuse to hang out with an unknown person of color because they might be a drug addicted thief? I mean, a portion of blacks and Hispanics are thieves and on drugs, so this new person has the potential to be both, right?

Most people would call that being unreasonable. Discriminatory even. Well, you're advocating for the same here, just against a larger class.

You don't fix issues through mass discrimination.

And, sure, it's your personal right to avoid everybody and anybody you want. I'm just saying that we shouldn't be spreading such a tactic like it's the best solution.

Are you next going to say we shouldn't teach kids what to do if an adult touches them in the wrong place, because it's unfair to adults? Not ALL child abusers are adults!

You also teach kids that not all adults are child abusers and most are here to help. Where's that in your posts about men?

[Sleepwalker]

Khel: Your name reads as male to me, so I forget. Read the 'you' as a general one if you like. As for assumptions...

I find it interesting that you think I am a hermit, when I keep describing tactics one uses in social situations to mitigate risk from attackers. Key word being, social. I associate with men all the time. Have buddies who are guys. I also keep in mind that about 1 in 10 are going to rape somebody at some point in their lives, and it's not like I have rapist-vision to identify which ones.

Like I said before, my point is that when you say that people should 'protect themselves' without discriminating against dudes, what you are saying is that they should engage in defensive maneuvers against dudes without letting the dudes know. Which is bullshit. Guys know it it, too, which is why the loser variety will get angry if you don't leave your drink along with them, or won't go with them alone in their car.

Should we teach kids how to let down the man offering them candy in the panel van nicely, so we're not discriminating against him?

[Kheldarson]

It's not a matter of wanting. We DO live in a society like that, where a significant portion of the male population are rapists, and a large number of women are raped.

This was your initial statement. Instead of your now statement of:

I also keep in mind that about 1 in 10 are going to rape somebody at some point in their lives, and it's not like I have rapist-vision to identify which ones.

The former statement outright states that most men are rapists vs. the latter statement.

I also never stated that you, personally, were a hermit. Just pointing out that if we act like all groups must be treated like the small criminal portion represents the whole, then that must be the only safe path.

But even then, you're not really safe if some ass really wants to get to you, yeah?

Like I said before, my point is that when you say that people should 'protect themselves' without discriminating against dudes, what you are saying is that they should engage in defensive maneuvers against dudes without letting the dudes know. Which is bullshit. Guys know it it, too, which is why the loser variety will get angry if you don't leave your drink along with them, or won't go with them alone in their car.

And? It's not like the loser variety are the ones you want to associate with anyway. And the defensive maneuvers provide great openings to make legitimate scenes if they keep pushing.

Should we teach kids how to let down the man offering them candy in the panel van nicely, so we're not discriminating against him?

You teach them how to turn down candy politely from anybody without mom's permission.

I've never said not to advocate for your personal safety. But your commentary has been geared towards this idea that ALL men are rapists. Period. This is the first post you've actually said it's only a small portion of the population.

You can protect yourself without proclaiming that it's because all men are rapists. Or thieves. Or whatever crime you want to go with.

[Sleepwalker]

What? The first quote is me saying 'a significant portion'? What do you think the word significant means? It doesn't mean 'most'. o.0 1 in 10-20 is a significant portion of the population...

[Gravekeeper]

Khel: Men aren't being treated as potential criminals by our legal, economic or religious systems.

Cripes, you really need to read into what a false allegation of ANY kind of sexual nature does to a male vs a female. Even the most bullshit allegation can destroy a man's entire career. Conversely, its apparently not much of a problem when a female teacher fucks her underage students then hooks back up with them after they get out of prison.

If you have a problem with this, work on making 'men' more trustworthy- your hurt feelings do not make women safer.

Nor does your tone deaf prejudice or over simplification of a very complex problem.

Gravekeeper: 85% of rapists say what they did was not rape, despite it being non consensual sex.

Change rapists to murderers or thieves for a moment. See the problem? Even if your figure is accurate, generally speaking people don't just walk into court, admit they totally committed a crime and accept the sentence.

Also, 90% of female rape victims know their attacker. The majority of female rape victims are raped by their significant other or ex. Being raped by a complete stranger is rare despite your view every random man on the street as a rapist approach.

Furthermore, the flash points of high rape rates are concentrated ( sadly ) in US colleges and universities. ( Also, Alaska ). It also needs to be further noted that all these stats being thrown about are US specific. The US has a rape epidemic going on at all levels against both genders. The FBI only got around to changing its definition of rape to include male victims 3 years ago. Historically, rape statistics do not include male victims. Those are considered separate as sexual violence or assault.

But this all comes back to my previous point about the underlying problem being culture, education, etc. My country has 1/16th the rape rate of yours. So something is systematically wrong.

Seriously, y'all are trying to shame me into not viewing men as threats, as if going through the motions of guarding my drink and locking my doors and walking to my car in groups while ignoring who exactly I think I am guarding myself against is somehow going to fix the rape problem.

You are both creating and responding to your own narrative. We're not having much in the way of input into it whatsoever. But you don't get to offend or insult people then claim they're "shaming" you when they object.

Are you next going to say we shouldn't teach kids what to do if an adult touches them in the wrong place, because it's unfair to adults? Not ALL child abusers are adults!

Nice strawman. You know that isn't a analogous comparison right. At least, I farking hope you do.

I also keep in mind that about 1 in 10 are going to rape somebody at some point in their lives, and it's not like I have rapist-vision to identify which ones.

Are you actually getting that stat from somewhere or are you just basing it on the stat for victims. Because if so, windmills do not work that way.

[Hyena Dandy]

and up to a _third_ say they would likely commit those acts if they wouldn't be punished for it,

What's interesting about this, though, is quite often people will say "I will do this if there won't be punishment for it," and then, when they could possibly do it, it turns out they won't. If you asked me, sometimes at least, would I kill someone if I thought I could get away with it, I probably would say yes. But it's not fair to treat me as a murderer.

Additionally, according to the CDC, there are about 89k rapes per year in the U.S. If we assume that even 99% of rapes went unreported, then there's about 8.9 million rapes. If each one of those is by a different person, and all rapists are male, then, every year, 8.9 million men commit rape, which is still... About 6% of men. So, 1 in 20 men would be likely to commit rape every year. Of course, "99% of rapes are unreported" is not the party line, the party line is that 56%. So, we might get up to about 200,000 rapes, and again, if only men commit rape (bullshit) and no rapist ever repeat offends (double bullshit) we find less than 1% of men will commit rape in a year.

You're right when you say that women have every right to choose not to associate with men, because they're afraid of being raped. Men have every right to do the same, for the same reason. Everyone has every right to associate with who they want, for whatever reasons. However, this is not about whether you have the right to do that. You would have just as much right to choose not to associate with men because you believe that it will negatively impact the energy flow of your chakras. It would be an equally irrational decision.

[Kheldarson]

You would have just as much right to choose not to associate with men because you believe that it will negatively impact the energy flow of your chakras. It would be an equally irrational decision.

I dunno...my chakras, man, they are so hard to cleanse once the flow's been messed with

[Hyena Dandy]

Has anyone here ever been in such a situation? How did they handle it?

I'd take it on a case-by-case basis. Take into account what you know about the people involved. I don't think that's unfair. I've had three situations where one friend accused another of basically the same thing, not rape, but being controlling and abusive.

My best friend's ex accused him of that. Taking into consideration my experience with him, knowing him for (at the time) 20 years and knowing that he's never at all been in any way pushy, and actually has serious troubles with disagreement/conflicts, the fact that I was there and talking to both of them through their break-up, that she's said the exact same things about every other relationship, and that neither one mentioned these horrible things to me until after the relationship was over, I'm inclined to believe that he wasn't abusive.

The second time, I wasn't there the whole time, I don't know them well, but I know that after the accusation, the guy who was accused of being so terrible went from being happy, open, and optimistic, to very closed, and cynical, and convinced that everyone is out to fuck over everyone else. Based on that, I'd say it's more likely he didn't do it, but I don't know, because I wasn't there enough.

Third time, the friend was accused of being careless and insulting, and attacking his girlfriend emotionally, etc. I know, in that case, that the person accused, while fun to hang out with, always had been very distant to people, and a bit controlling in general. I definitely believed his girlfriend in that case.

The question of "Is it likely my friend is a rapist because he was accused?" is misleading when you discuss statistics like how many false accusations there are. What you can know about the people in question is definitely relevant.

[siead_lietrathua]

i think this would be less inflammitory if we learned to teach people as a whole how to deal with rape, in their sex ed classes as youths.
teach both about proper consent from the get-go. teach them that consent is not the absence of a no, but an enthusiastic yes. teach them that alcohol and drugs removes consent even with that enthusiastic yes.
teach them the consequences of not getting consent. teach them what happens to people who are accused of rape. AND teach them what happens to those that falsely accuse rape if it's exposed.
teach them about protecting themselves. teach them what predators look for, how they act, what coercion is like. keep all teachings gender neutral, as both men and women can be rapists. the stats are irrelevant, we aren't teaching people to avoid humans, but situations. teach them how to avoid situations that may lead to rape (going home with strangers, alcohol fueled house parties, etc). teach them fucking risk-assessment and common sense.
Teach them how to avoid assault in general. if you're in a situation where you could be beat up unnoticed, you're in a situation where you can be raped. if walking down that back alley makes you think you could be robbed, then you should also think you could be raped.

and because i have heard the complaint before, i feel the need to bold this. Teaching people risk assessment is not victim blaming. we don't call it victim blaming when we teach kids how to not ride their bikes in the street, how to handle bullies, how to avoid being robbed, how to avoid traffic and setting fires and etc.


and for fucks sake can we stop being such misandrists about it? pissing off men with the kinda bullshit article in the OP makes the good men out there, the MAJORITY of men, the "9 in 10" that wouldn't rape, less open to helping with the cause. no-one wants to help in a situation where they're being equated with scum at every breath.
and, frankly, men are needed in the discussion when we are taking about rape. are the real* male rapists out there going to listen to the women they see at meat? or will they listen to the outnumbering pack of males behind them ready to rip their heads off?
and frankly, women have a fair bit to answer for too. i've seen women argue that men should know better, be able to control eachother, etc from being rapists. but what have we, as women, done to stop the women that rape men? what if 1/10 women rape the men in their lives? will we start screaming in the streets how all women are rapists and should be treated with suspicion?
yeah right, that'd be a cold day in hell.

*by real, i mean the ones that intentionally seek out people to rape.


edit: sorry for this basically being a regurgitation rant. i was just gettin' annnoyyyeedddddd. lol.

[Ginger Tea]

A few years ago a co-worker was arrested at work during lunch, was rather unexpected and no one knew why, those who were outside at the time were politely told to fuck off by the police.

Rumour mill was all over the shop, I kept out of it as it could be anything, but as he was Jamaican most leant towards drug related.

It was well known he had women on the side, no idea if his wife knew, but he got one co worker pregnant and spoke of a few other children fathered after coming to England. But that was his life not mine, so I didn't care and as I didn't know his wife I didn't have to worry about letting her know or anything.

Months later he comes back to work, it might have been in the press, I don't know, I don't read the local rag. I ask what he was arrested for. Rape, he was acquitted and unlike 99.99% of all other acquittals he didn't get shunned or lose his job and during one quite spell in the evening shift where we waited for drivers so we could get the packing containers back we spoke about it.

The Jury found her account of the night in question physically implausible, or it was pointed out to them by the defence, he would need to have 2 extra hands to do what she said he did, that coupled with the fact that he got up part way through to shush her baby in another room, giving her plenty of time to escape to the neighbours if what was happening was really happening.

I don't recall if he admitted to being around hers on the night in question, but he had been seeing her off and on, but when he told me her testimony as best as he could recall it, I said
"So you took both hands off her and did this?"
"That's what she said" (unintended use of that phrase sorry)
"So why didn't she run then?"
"They asked her that, she said I held her down."
"With what?"
"My hands."
"The same two hands she admitted under oath were elsewhere, or have you got two arms your not telling me about?"
"Exactly."

TLDR Co-worker gets accused of rape and society didn't shit on him afterwards.

I dropped the subject and aside from this thread and maybe one other, never thought about it aside from him being one of the lucky few to not loose his job family and potentially his life due to a lie.

None of the women working made objections to his presence, in all we were happy to have him back.

As an aside, the whole significant number, I don't know if there is a set minimum listed or if its subjective, but I don't see <60% significant.

[TheHuckster]

Your co-worker is very lucky, Ginger Tea. Although because this kind of stuff is public record, he could still have trouble finding new jobs, or even being approved for leases or loans for the foreseeable future. It's great that he hasn't gotten any immediate grief for it, though, and still has his friends' and family's support.

I feel fortunate not having to make the choice between a close friend's word against a stranger's accusation. But it's totally ridiculous to equate defending a friend accused of rape with being "pro-rape." That's just as ridiculous as equating finding it hard to believe a friend would be capable of murder with being "pro-murder."

Give me ample evidence that this actually happened, and I'll believe it. But the thing is, rapists often fit a certain profile that might not show when they're an acquaintance, but when you really get to know them. They will often use derogatory statements against women, have a hard time with long-term relationships, and they might have even gotten in trouble in the past, maybe not with rape specifically, but at the very least some kind of misogynistic action, whether legal or not, that would make one raise their eyebrows a bit... like "you told her WHAT?!"

And, yeah, I get it: there's some anecdotes of fringe cases where a seemingly gentle family-man by day is actually a serial rapist by night. But you can't blame that person's closest friends and family for finding it hard to believe, if they have only known the daytime person for years, and especially when there are other cases of truly crazy or really crappy people out there who will falsely accuse someone of something as horrible as rape.

[Canarr]

Canarr: Statistically, false reports of rape are rare. It's far more likely that your hypothetical male friend is a rapist than that your female friend is a liar. How I would respond to that hypothetical situation really depends on the details. All things being equal, I'd likely disassociate myself with the male friend at the very least.

Like GK said: false rape accusations are very hard to track. There have been studies conducted among German, Austrian and Swiss law enforcement personnel, but the results are all over the place. In 2000, law enforcement in Bavaria filed charges for false accusations in 7.4% of the rape charges filed in that year (140 out of 1894) - and that was just the number of cases where police could find evidence of intentional false accusations by the alleged rape victim. Other police forces have given rates ranging from 20-30% up to 50% of rape accusations made. The latter figure definitely seems too high to me, but I have a hard time believing the claims to the contrary, that false accusations basically never happen. Still, it's hard to say where the truth lies.

In 2013, Germany had 7,408 charges of rape or aggravated sexual assault brought before the police; 82% of these cases were marked as solved. I could not find figures of the number of actual court cases resulting from these charges, nor the conviction rate; but in 2012, only 8.4% of rape charges resulted in a conviction. Mostly, that's due to lack of clear evidence and/or witnesses.

It's a difficult subject, but I'm pretty sure we won't come any further in solving it by painting all men as beasts and rapists.

But you don't get to offend or insult people then claim they're "shaming" you when they object.

Absolutely right.

I'd take it on a case-by-case basis. Take into account what you know about the people involved. I don't think that's unfair. I've had three situations where one friend accused another of basically the same thing, not rape, but being controlling and abusive.

Thanks for your examples. I think I'd have done the same in the case you give; seems sensible.

i think this would be less inflammitory if we learned to teach people as a whole how to deal with rape, in their sex ed classes as youths.
teach both about proper consent from the get-go. teach them that consent is not the absence of a no, but an enthusiastic yes. teach them that alcohol and drugs removes consent even with that enthusiastic yes.

Better information and education is certainly the way to go, agreed. But, to be honest: common sense is not something teenagers (especially) are particularly good at. All the education in the world won't keep kids from experimenting with alcohol, drugs, and sex as they grow up (probably in combination). Most WILL get drunk, many WILL smoke dope, and most WILL have sex; trying to prevent that has never worked in the history of mankind.

I don't think anyone would deny that intentionally getting someone else under the influence of alcohol or drugs in order to have sex with them is rape, plain and simple. But things stop being so simple as soon as you have multiple people consuming alcohol or drugs together, then proceed to have sex. What then? Did both rape the other, because neither could legally consent?

I feel fortunate not having to make the choice between a close friend's word against a stranger's accusation. But it's totally ridiculous to equate defending a friend accused of rape with being "pro-rape." That's just as ridiculous as equating finding it hard to believe a friend would be capable of murder with being "pro-murder."

Very true.

Kheldarson, GK and S_L put it very well: demonizing or attacking an entire gender for the actions of a small percentage is not only morally wrong - like racism - but it's counterproductive to any attempt at raising awareness for the problem. If people - men or women - feel wrongly attacked, they'll go on the defensive. And be less inclined to listen to any reasonable positions coming from those they see as attacking them.

[Ginger Tea]

If someone I knew came up to me and told me she felt every man should be treated as a potential rapist I would just ask her to not associate with me any more, if said person was a co worker, I might even go to HR and ask that we never be paired up together and if we should then only with a chaperone of sorts, not for her 'protection' from my 'obviously latent rapist genome', but so that I have a witness if she ever decides to cry wolf.

Using the Race analogy again, would a black man still stay friends with a white man after he makes enough bigoted remarks? I don't think so, so why would anyone put up with similar?

[siead_lietrathua]

Better information and education is certainly the way to go, agreed. But, to be honest: common sense is not something teenagers (especially) are particularly good at. All the education in the world won't keep kids from experimenting with alcohol, drugs, and sex as they grow up (probably in combination). Most WILL get drunk, many WILL smoke dope, and most WILL have sex; trying to prevent that has never worked in the history of mankind.

I don't think anyone would deny that intentionally getting someone else under the influence of alcohol or drugs in order to have sex with them is rape, plain and simple. But things stop being so simple as soon as you have multiple people consuming alcohol or drugs together, then proceed to have sex. What then? Did both rape the other, because neither could legally consent?

totally agree with you. i think the main benefit of teaching them is it takes away the 'but i didn't know' excuse.

as to the second paragraph, one thing i HATE is how, if it's drunken sex that both regret in the morning, that only the male is seen as a terrible rapist. pisses me off, because for all anyone knows he could have been the one coerced into sex, but our society will take the woman's side damn near every time.

semi-tangent: it makes me sad that articles like this exist, warning men what situations to avoid to keep from being falsely accused of rape. it's terrible that people need how-to guides on how to protect themselves from liars.
http://www.avoiceformen.com/miscella...se-rape-claim/

[Panacea]

I think what the author was trying to get at was that people need to stop with the, "But he can't have raped her! He'd never do that!" argument. We see it all the time and not just for rape. "He's a good kid. He'd never do anything wrong!"

Well, yes and no. The author does concede that anyone is capable of committing a sexual assault, just like anyone can commit murder. But then she goes on to say that people revictimize the alleged victim by refusing to cut the accused rapist loose.

Excuse me, but that's not how our criminal justice system works. There's a presumption of innocence. Until the facts come out in court, people have a right to support the accused.

And sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but not all rape allegations are true. I've done rape kits on women who later admitted they were angry with their boyfriend and wanted to get even, or who were prostitutes claiming they didn't get paid and wanted to get even.

The real problem with rape investigations in this country is the tendency to encourage the alleged victim not to press charges. To not want to do any investigation at all. We see that on college campuses a LOT. Hell, I've experienced it. I was being stalked by a creeper who was a perpetual student. He had been trying to flirt with me, and I kept telling him bluntly I was not interested (aside from the fact he was 15 years older than me at the time, overweight, bald and not very attractive, he was CREEPY. He gave me such a bad vibe). He followed me back to my room and tried to enter without an invitation, and wouldn't leave when I told him to get lost.

It really shook me up. I called campus police, who said there wasn't anything they could do other than to talk to him and tell him to leave me alone, because he hadn't actually touched me or gotten into my room (I have a lifelong habit of locking the door as soon as I get home . . . and a good thing, too).

It didn't work. It took a couple of male friends threatening to beat the crap out of him to finally get him to back off (and thank god he wasn't the "I'll kill you" kind of creeper).

So I get what rape victims are saying. I really do. I don't blame them for not wanting their rapist to be on campus, going to class, etc. But the problem is, you have to prove the crime before you can take away someone's right of free association. So while I agree it should not have to be the victim who leave, if it really bothers her that much, that's what has to happen unless she has such a strong support system (like I did) that she can feel safe. And a lot of rape victims end up isolated because their accused attacker is popular.

It sucks. I don't know what the solution is, but throwing out the Constitution is not it.