University Students Invent Fingernail Polish that Detects Date Rape Drugs

[siead_lietrathua]

I disagree with the notion that we can't teach both defensive measures against getting raped while also teaching others to treat women (and anyone else) with respect.

the problem is, with people like that, is teaching women anything about rape prevention is 'victim blaming' in their eyes.
which i don't get. teaching people how to avoid being mugged isn't victim blaming, it's personal safety. but change 'assault' to 'sexual assault' and suddenly people can't be advised on how to protect themselves? even if the advice is near-identical between the two? sigh.

[NecCat]

^ Exactly.

From the article: “The problem isn’t that women don’t know when there are roofies in their drink; the problem is people putting roofies in their drink in the first place,” Nagle pointed out.

Seems akin to telling people to stop locking their cars, locking their houses and shielding their pins from others because there just shouldn`t be thieves in the world.

[XCashier]

^ Agreed! You cannot make other people behave themselves. You can protect yourself. No, the creeps shouldn't be drugging other people's drinks, but they do. Since they won't behave, you have to protect yourself. I think the nail polish is a very good idea.

As for unsanitary, hey, you've got alcohol in that drink!

[BlaqueKatt]

Another risk, even for "bring your own", is that it tests for specific substances. Creep uses a substance that the device doesn't test for? No reaction, so device gives a false sense of security.

and the fact that only 2.4% of rapes are due to drugs other than alcohol.

the problem is, with people like that, is teaching women anything about rape prevention is 'victim blaming' in their eyes.

It's a PR thing.

Maintaining situational awareness is good because you never know when something may happen: accident, power cut, witnessing an altercation.
vs.
Don't drink so much you pass out and get raped.*

Basic self defense is a good thing for everyone to know. vs. Basic self defense should be taught to women to prevent rape.
(I have a slight issue that *many* women's self defense classes focus only on defense against male attackers. :/ )

*This could lead into a huge rant about the drinking age and some parenting styles born out of wishful thinking(my child won't drink until age 21, and then will magically know, having never been exposed to alcohol before, exactly what their limit is and how they react to it). but I'll refrain.

[Canarr]

and the fact that only 2.4% of rapes are due to drugs other than alcohol.

That's a sensible point. Frankly, I didn't know the percentage was so low; that doesn't really make the nail polish - or any similar gadget - a useful measure, simply due to the fact that it'll do nothing in 97,6% of rape cases.

This is actually an argument I can get behind: if drugs are only used in such a small number of cases, then offering a solution to drugs is not only not helpful, but actually dangerous - it will lead to complacency, because now that we've excluded the use of roofies, women are safe.

On the other hand, what I can't really get behind is something like this (from the article TheHuckster linked):

“One of the ways that rape is used as a tool to control people is by limiting their behavior,” Rebecca Nagle, one of the co-directors of an activist group called FORCE: Upsetting Rape Culture that challenges the societal norms around sexual assault, explained. “As a woman, I’m told not to go out alone at night, to watch my drink, to do all of these things. That way, rape isn’t just controlling me while I’m actually being assaulted — it controls me 24/7 because it limits my behavior. Solutions like these actually just recreate that. I don’t want to fucking test my drink when I’m at the bar. That’s not the world I want to live in.”

Now, I understand that this is a theory popular amongst certain (feminist?) circles; that there is a conspiracy of the Patriarchy that uses rape as a tool to keep women suppressed. What I don't understand is how, exactly, that is supposed to work, but that's probably not really important.

Frankly, I believe that's bullshit of the highest order. And I believe that such a theory is just as wrong, and just as despicable, as claiming a woman was "asking for it" by wearing revealing clothing and drinking alcohol.

Rape is a crime, committed by (mostly) one individual against another, and it should be punished accordingly if guilt can be establisehd beyond reasonable doubt (difficult, I know). And just like leaving your keys in the ignition doesn't make it "okay" for someone to steal your car, does drinking and passing out not make it "okay" for someone to rape you.

But rape isn't a "tool" consciously employed by someone to oppress women. And claiming this - claiming that all men are profitting from some kind of "rape culture" and oppression - is just as bad as claiming that "she wouldn't have been raped if she hadn't dressed like that".

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

I'm going to 101 this quickly, because there's a bit of a sidetrack here.

Patriarchy is a system comprised of both men and women, not a secret cabal of men folk. So polemically speaking, when someone says "rape is a tool of patriarchy against women" what is being alluded to (Patriarchy being a system of rule primarily driven in the favor of men) is that because women have to fear to a far greater degree than men for their safety and thus rape is a tool of preserving that imbalance of power. It's an abstraction of a whole lot of systems and actors.

Pop feminism often goes crossways with me, but on the numbers I do not think that is an incorrect view of it. The fact is I do walk down the streets with fewer fears. I interject myself into groups without the same concerns. I am not afraid if I voice my opinion a really fucked up result is going to occur. My ability to voice opinion freely in a democratic society is a big deal. While not all women actually fear rape to the same degree, the fact that on average more women do fear rape and it influences their actions, the idea that rape actively works to suppress the voice of women in a global context not only seems correct, it seems pretty obvious.

The pop-feminism version is where things get sketchy. When the concept gets applied to specific people or groups rather than an overall societal thing, it stops making sense quickly. Mainly because it brings in societal designs that are beyond the scope of what individual actors can control or even think of controlling. That stops being "patriarchy" and becomes "Boko Haram" which is patriarchal but is not patriarchy.

[BlaqueKatt]

This is actually an argument I can get behind: if drugs are only used in such a small number of cases, then offering a solution to drugs is not only not helpful, but actually dangerous - it will lead to complacency, because now that we've excluded the use of roofies, women are safe.

and I've known of people "spiking" drinks with everclear, same effect, this nailpolish won't do anything about that. Not sure what the stats are for rape with alcohol, but I believe it's higher(according to studies from 20-50%), and again that goes to not knowing your limit(alcohol poisoning isn't pretty), and being in the vicinity of a criminal with depleted situational awareness.

found three articles with differing takes on the subject
first-National institutes of health
second-college alcohol study
Third-discusses the link between alcohol and sexual assault

[Canarr]

I'm going to 101 this quickly, because there's a bit of a sidetrack here.

Patriarchy is a system comprised of both men and women, not a secret cabal of men folk. So polemically speaking, when someone says "rape is a tool of patriarchy against women" what is being alluded to (Patriarchy being a system of rule primarily driven in the favor of men) is that because women have to fear to a far greater degree than men for their safety and thus rape is a tool of preserving that imbalance of power. It's an abstraction of a whole lot of systems and actors.

Pop feminism often goes crossways with me, but on the numbers I do not think that is an incorrect view of it. The fact is I do walk down the streets with fewer fears. I interject myself into groups without the same concerns. I am not afraid if I voice my opinion a really fucked up result is going to occur. My ability to voice opinion freely in a democratic society is a big deal. While not all women actually fear rape to the same degree, the fact that on average more women do fear rape and it influences their actions, the idea that rape actively works to suppress the voice of women in a global context not only seems correct, it seems pretty obvious.

So... if I understand correctly, the theory is that the system of patriarchy uses rape as a tool to keep women oppressed through fear, right? That rape, as an everpresent threat, keeps women from exercising their full potential and/or influence on social, political, economical issues? If that were true (because it seems neither obvious, nor entirely believable to me), then would that not run somewhat contrary to the "rape culture" theory that the patriarchy actively suppresses, downplays and trivializes charges of rape?

What I mean is: if I - the Man intent on oppressing the Woman - were aware of such a powerful, fear-inducing tool as rape, would I not constantly try to make women aware of it, too, in order to increase their fear, and thus, their oppression? Would I not do my best to make sure women know that rape can happen to any of them, anytime, anywhere, and there's nothing they can do about it, except marry and have children, then stay at home forever? Would I not happily sentence the occasional individual rapist, while saying, "Sure, that one's locked away now; but there's millions more where he came from!" instead of downplaying the crime with platitudes like, "No, that wasn't really rape, it was just a misunderstanding!" ?

From what I've read over the past couple of weeks on the subject, the ones making the most use of this fear-inducing tool are labelling themselves feminists and enemies of the patriarchy. So, if rape is truly a tool of the oppressors, then why are the self-proclaimed liberators the ones making the most use of it (of the threat, not of the crime itself)?

As you may notice, I dislike both the theories of "the patriarchy" and "the rape culture" intensely, because from my POV, they distract from the individual tragedy that rape is and needlessly polarize the issue.

and I've known of people "spiking" drinks with everclear, same effect, this nailpolish won't do anything about that. Not sure what the stats are for rape with alcohol, but I believe it's higher(according to studies from 20-50%), and again that goes to not knowing your limit(alcohol poisoning isn't pretty), and being in the vicinity of a criminal with depleted situational awareness.

Is that a lot more common than the use of roofies? Probably easier to obtain, sure, but still requires a certain premeditation that - from my understanding - isn't present in the majority of rapes, as they are typically crimes of opportunity. I may be wrong in this regard, though, as there is very little documentation to be found on the subject (premeditation vs. impulse in rape or sexual assault).

[Kheldarson]

As you may notice, I dislike both the theories of "the patriarchy" and "the rape culture" intensely, because from my POV, they distract from the individual tragedy that rape is and needlessly polarize the issue.

I agree with not liking the idea of "the patriarchy", but "rape culture" does exist, and it's perpetuated by both genders. It's the idea that, for whatever reason, one gender is worth less than another, so it's fine to treat them as objects. And women do this as much as men, if in different ways (guys will catcall and shame on body image, women ask when you're getting married, having kids, and show disapproval when you answer wrong). Once we allow the idea that a gender's worth is only from one aspect of their whole and treat them as objects who must fulfill that role, then it's an easy step to acting violently against them as they aren't really "human" in the way we address them or treat them.

[Canarr]

I agree with not liking the idea of "the patriarchy", but "rape culture" does exist, and it's perpetuated by both genders. It's the idea that, for whatever reason, one gender is worth less than another, so it's fine to treat them as objects. And women do this as much as men, if in different ways (guys will catcall and shame on body image, women ask when you're getting married, having kids, and show disapproval when you answer wrong). Once we allow the idea that a gender's worth is only from one aspect of their whole and treat them as objects who must fulfill that role, then it's an easy step to acting violently against them as they aren't really "human" in the way we address them or treat them.

But... don't we do the same to boys and men, just in the other direction? How many stories have we read here, on Fratching, about boys being bullied and tormented in school because they have "nerdy" hobbies, or are more emotional/sensitive/intellectual than the "jocks"? Sometimes, being a small boy/man is reason enough to be attacked by your own peers. And how often are male nurses, kindergarten teachers, caregivers ridiculed for choosing a "female" career path?

This has nothing to do with regarding one gender as inferior to the other, and everything to do with any social group's tendency to place certain behavioral expectations on their members - and ostracizing those who don't meet them.

It's not "rape culture", it's just humans being assholes in groups.

[siead_lietrathua]

rape culture =/= gender stereotyping. i have NEVER seen it in a context outside of the topic of rape (unless it's as a strawman in the conversation)

rape culture is purely the idea that men are rapists, women are victims, and this is what society thinks is both normal and acceptable. that society will protect the rapists, and that victims should just keep it to themselves.

tangent ahead:

i have to disagree with the idea that the majority of rapists think of their victims as objects. remember most women know their rapists. hell many are dating/married to them. those men are not seeing the women as 'just a hole', an object. they are focused on that particular victim, as both a human and an individual. rape is mostly used as a tool of control, and they want to control and dominate the individual for who they are.

i mean, this may be a crass example, but which is more objectifying:
1) a man sees a woman he finds attractive and catcalls her for having, say, red hair and green eyes.
2) a man sees his wife as the laundry/ cleaning/ food provider, and couldn't even tell you her favourite movie despite 3 years of marriage.

to me, the second is more 'objectifying' because you could plug any human or machine into the role. he doesn't see the woman for her individuality, but for the service she provides.

/tangent lol

[BlaqueKatt]

then would that not run somewhat contrary to the "rape culture" theory that the patriarchy actively suppresses, downplays and trivializes charges of rape?

well let's see, women and girls are generally told from a young age how to prevent being raped(while males are usually not sat down by parents/authority figures and told to respect boundaries, what constitutes consent vs. coercion-this is changing slowly), and then if when it does happen it's dismissed as not important.

Look at various dictatorships, do they advertise that opposition will get you killed/imprisoned? When it does happen does anyone care? Does the victim have agency? Is the victim taken seriously by those that can do something about it?

Is that a lot more common than the use of roofies? Probably easier to obtain, sure, but still requires a certain premeditation that - from my understanding - isn't present in the majority of rapes, as they are typically crimes of opportunity.

Rohypnol was banned in 2006, GHB is easy to make but has unpleasant side effects especially when mixed with alcohol, Ketamine is another "common" drug(common is in quotes because with 2.4% of rapes involving drugs other than alcohol and 50% or more involving alcohol-which is acually common?), not real easy to come by either.

Already posted the stats on rape and alcohol, but your understanding is dead wrong.

Rape myths

Myth: Sexual assault is an impulsive, spontaneous act.
Fact: Most rapes are carefully planned by the rapist. A rapist will rape again and again, usually in the same area of town and in the same way.

Myth: Most rapes occur as a "spur of the moment" act in a dark alley by a stranger.

Fact: Rape often occurs in one's home - be it apartment, house or dormitory. Very often the rapist is known by the victim in some way and the rape is carefully planned.

Myth: Rape is an impulsive, uncontrollable act of sexual gratification. Most rape are spontaneous acts of passion where the assailant cannot control him/herself.


FACT Rape is a premeditated act of violence, not a spontaneous act of passion. 71% of rapes are planned in advance. 60% of convicted rapists were married or had regular sexual partners at the time of the assault. Men can control their sexual impulses. The vast majority of rapists are motivated by power, anger, and control, not sexual gratification.

[Eisa]

i have to disagree with the idea that the majority of rapists think of their victims as objects. remember most women know their rapists. hell many are dating/married to them. those men are not seeing the women as 'just a hole', an object. they are focused on that particular victim, as both a human and an individual. rape is mostly used as a tool of control, and they want to control and dominate the individual for who they are.

Actually, that is entirely how at least one, and almost certainly more, of my abusers have seen me. An object to play with. Only wanting to know who I am to ensure they could keep me around longer to play with, because they didn't like their toy leaving.

[Kheldarson]

But... don't we do the same to boys and men, just in the other direction? How many stories have we read here, on Fratching, about boys being bullied and tormented in school because they have "nerdy" hobbies, or are more emotional/sensitive/intellectual than the "jocks"? Sometimes, being a small boy/man is reason enough to be attacked by your own peers. And how often are male nurses, kindergarten teachers, caregivers ridiculed for choosing a "female" career path?

This has nothing to do with regarding one gender as inferior to the other, and everything to do with any social group's tendency to place certain behavioral expectations on their members - and ostracizing those who don't meet them.

It's not "rape culture", it's just humans being assholes in groups.

Except they're tied together. Look at your examples. Boys are picked on for being small, weak. What adjectives do people use to describe such individuals? What kind of phrases? "You throw like a girl!"; "Man up!" (as opposed to woman up); "Grow a pair!"; "Pussy!"; etc. A lot of insults we throw at less manly guys are in direct comparison to being a female. It is an insult to be a woman in our society's language. So if our language supports the idea that one gender is lesser than another, how far away is it that the "greater" group starts treating them poorly, up to and including violence of all types?

We see it in hate groups all the time.

rape culture is purely the idea that men are rapists, women are victims, and this is what society thinks is both normal and acceptable. that society will protect the rapists, and that victims should just keep it to themselves.

This is a direct definition, but it has to come from somewhere. And looking at our language and stereotypes shows a lot of what root issues there are.

tangent ahead:

i have to disagree with the idea that the majority of rapists think of their victims as objects. remember most women know their rapists. hell many are dating/married to them. those men are not seeing the women as 'just a hole', an object. they are focused on that particular victim, as both a human and an individual. rape is mostly used as a tool of control, and they want to control and dominate the individual for who they are.

i mean, this may be a crass example, but which is more objectifying:
1) a man sees a woman he finds attractive and catcalls her for having, say, red hair and green eyes.
2) a man sees his wife as the laundry/ cleaning/ food provider, and couldn't even tell you her favourite movie despite 3 years of marriage.

to me, the second is more 'objectifying' because you could plug any human or machine into the role. he doesn't see the woman for her individuality, but for the service she provides.

/tangent lol

Even if a man knows the woman, as your second example points out, he's still capable of seeing her as merely a tool, a function (the cleaner of the house). And if he's forcing her to have sex on top of that, how is that any less a rape?

The fact that the rapists tend to know their victims doesn't mean they actually see the victims as a"person"; it could be the same view a child has of a toy they are currently fixated on.

[Hyena Dandy]

Except they're tied together. Look at your examples. Boys are picked on for being small, weak. What adjectives do people use to describe such individuals? What kind of phrases? "You throw like a girl!"; "Man up!" (as opposed to woman up); "Grow a pair!"; "Pussy!"; etc. A lot of insults we throw at less manly guys are in direct comparison to being a female. It is an insult to be a woman in our society's language.

The insult isn't "A woman is a woman." The insult is that a man is a woman. The fact that men get judged for being insufficiently 'masculine' is not an attack on women, it's an attack on men. It limits men.

Of the insults you used, three of them ("Grow a pair!" "Man up!" "Be a man!") don't say anything AT ALL about women. Women aren't mentioned, because being a woman isn't the point of it. Grow a pair is sayng "This man lacks testicles, which are in our culture seen as a sign of bravery." Both "Man up!" and "Be a man!" Are saying "You aren't a man, and this is bad." They aren't saying, "You are a women, and women are bad, therefore, this is bad." They're judgements on lacking something associated with 'manliness.'

Of the other two, again, "You throw like a girl," is not a judgement on women, because the implication of it is that throwing baseballs is a manly act. To insult a man with that is to say "You perform this act of manhood insufficiently, like someone who is not a man." It is not an insult to say someone cooks like a girl, and to say that a man dresses like a girl is shameful because he wears clothes appropriate to women, not because women are bad at picking out the right clothes.

"Pussy" is also not about women, as it has a direct male equivalent, "Dick." To call someone a pussy is to say that they are excessively possessing of the NEGATIVE aspects associated with femininity, particularly physical weakness or cowardliness. It isn't a judgement on women, because it's not associated with the positive things associated with femininity. Grace, empathy, style. Similarly, to call someone a dick is to accuse them of being excessively possessing of negative aspects of masculinity. Someone you'd call a dick is likely lacking in social norms, empathy, or is excessively aggressive.

Additionally, those aren't the only way to insult a man for not being sufficiently masculine. You could call him a pansy, or a faggot. Both of those are insults based on homosexuality, yet carry many of the same implications as saying someone is, say, a 'girlyman' would. And they are for the same reason, they are attacking a man for not performing an act associated with masculinity, and by implication saying that they likely are not masculine in other ways (Attracted to girls, for instance.)

Insulting a man by comparing him to a woman isn't about the woman. This actually IS about men, and it's about the fact that men are judged for not being masculine, far more than women are for not being feminine.

If I were to include an exchange like the following in a TV show

Male Character: "Hey, who's the Jets quarterback at Superbowl 3?"

Female Character: "Joe Namath?"

Male Character: "What type of woman knows about Joe Namath?"

The man would come off badly in the situation. He would (rightly) appear sexist, and the woman would appear strong, for showing up a clearly sexist man in knowledge in a masculine area (football.)

Meanwhile, if an exchange were to occur along the lines of

Female Character: "Wait, who's the editor of Vogue again?"

Male Character: "Anna Wintour?"

Female Character: "What type of man knows about Anna Wintour?"

Women possessing male knowledge is not a mark on them. Men possessing female knowledge is. Not because the knowledge is lesser, but because a man has ventured outside the accepted masculine areas. If I were to say "She must be a lesbian, she knows Peyton Hillis is on the Giants!" And yet, the climax of a popular film-turned-musical revolves around the fact that a man is able to identify a pair of shoes as being last year's faction, and this being evidence that he man in question cannot have carried on an affair with a woman, because he must be gay, due to his possessing of 'female' knowledge.

And yet, that is popular in a large part BECAUSE it features a female character who engages in many feminine pursuits, yet who is excelling in masculine areas. Women in popular culture can do feminine things, and yet still be proficient in male areas. Indeed, a common complaint is that a woman doing something feminine isn't weakened even when she SHOULD be (The large number of women in high heels in fight scenes.)

Insulting men by comparing them to women isn't an insult because being a woman is BAD. It's an insult because of the misgendering.