University Students Invent Fingernail Polish that Detects Date Rape Drugs

[Gravekeeper]

I had to go back and re-read that after having a bit of a wtf.

International study is from 2013, you have any evidence to support your claim that present day society is different?

This is one of those statements that give me a momentary brain glitch when I try to parse it. All violent crime and especially sexual assault and rape have been on a steady decline since the 1980s in the West.

A quick check with the Department of Justice reveals the rate of rape in the US dropped by a staggering 94% from 1979 to 2003. The rate of sexual assault and rape in the US dropped by 64% from 1995 to 2010 alone. It has since bottomed out and remained relatively level from 2010 to 2013. When you consider that the rate of reporting sexual assault to the police has conversely risen since the 1980s that is one hell of a shift in society. And yes, these figures include the estimated number of unreported sexual assaults and rape.

Yes, the US still has a rape problem, but to say it is unchanged from the last 20-30 years is profoundly ignorant.

As for the International study; Hyena already covered the problem with that. Southeast Asia has a huge rape problem thanks to underlying cultural issues, poverty, slow progress on civil freedoms and lack of effective justice.

Even I already pointed that sexual assault statistics in the US have a skewed up average thanks to a handful of areas with abnormally high rates such as Alaska. The same thing happens in the statistics in Canada due to the Yukon and Nunavut. Women of minorities and/or in isolated communities = much higher risk.

Hence my previous point about being a middle class suburban white woman and conflating the risk with that of a poor woman of a minority. Which is a much much deeper problem and one that will not be solved with just changes in sex education, etc. In the US especially its another symptom of a much wider systematic problem of racism and poverty.

Like all violent crime being poor, isolated and/or not white goes hand in hand with a dramatically increased risk.

[s_stabeler]

I feel like if you're going to just teach people how to have sex the legal consenting way, you're going to end up with quite a few who believe, "Well, she's an emotional wreck after I cheated on her and made her feel like crap, but it's OK because the cops aren't after me about it and she had consented."

so we shouldn't try to prevent rape, because some people are assholes?

[TheHuckster]

Besides, research has shown that a lot of how we view and conduct ourselves in relationships ( and view members of the opposite sex ) is derived from childhood observation of our parent's.

Could that be because there isn't any other influence from education on the matter? I agree that a large degree of influence comes from family and household behavior, but that doesn't mean we can't do something to counteract that.

We can't legislate mandatory relationship counselling ( Even if it would probably help the world at large ).

I'm talking more about just having this kind of education as part of other sex education. I'm not talking about having shrinks come to school and make a curriculum out of it, but simply give young students some exposure to what respect means.

so we shouldn't try to prevent rape, because some people are assholes?

Of course not. Read my post again: I'm saying that, for one, we should still teach about respect in addition to consent, and for two, teaching respect could also reduce the amount of emotional scars that come from other forms of abuse, some of which are technically legal but still very damaging to people's emotional health. In other words, I'd like to prevent more than just rape.

[Canarr]

International study is from 2013, you have any evidence to support your claim that present day society is different?

Come on, you can do better than that! It's YOUR job to come up with evidence to support your claims, not mine. And GK already provided excellent arguments as to the improvement of society (in this regard) since the early 80s.

Now, I'm not saying the US wouldn't benefit from further improvements in sexual education; from what I gather, the basic premise is still mostly, "If we don't teach our children about sex, they're never going to have any!" Which probably works about as well as one could expect.

But none of that means there's a "rape culture" or a "patriarchy" at work. Not in the US, and certainly not in Germany, and keeping up that claim is certainly not going to help promote any actual solutions to rape.

In order to hopefully lighten the mood a bit: here's something else the "patriarchy" is apparently responsible for. http://thefederalist.com/2013/11/08/...ade-phone-big/

[siead_lietrathua]

If you teach that women should not be coerced into sex, either by giving them false pretenses (e.g. "I'm here for a long-term relationship") ...

i have to say, the first example in this paragraph bugs me. saying that a person at one point says "I'm here for a long-term relationship", and then changes their mind is now some sort of false pretense?
what if she's a crazy bitch? or they find out later they disagree on something fundamental, like having kids? just because you find out later you're incompatible with someone and break up doesn't mean that suddenly the whole relationship was based on false pretenses. and just because a relationship ends unhappily, that doesn't magically make all their eagerly consensual sex now rape.

also, the idea that one-night stands (traditionally people picked up at a bar you don't know jack about) should have an emotional investment in their partners is silly. both the woman and man in a ONS were looking for sex, and they got sex. that doesn't mean they will now magically fall in love and live happily ever after. anyone who goes into a ONS thinking the other person is now suddenly their 'one twoo luv' needs to mature a lot before they should be picking up people at bars.

this idea of 'regret-rape', that women should be able to somehow turn back the clock and say 'well that was really rape, even though at the time i was digging it, or even initiated it! no, it's rape now because my feelings are hurt by actions that happened days/ weeks/ months later." sorry but it doesn't work that way.

if you're mature enough to be sleeping with people consensually, you also need to be mature enough to deal with the consequences of it. it's caller Personal Responsibility, and Being A Fucking Adult.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

Huckster I think you misinterpret why I bring up BDSM. BDSM is such a complex scene because of just about every permutation that shows up in it. But some of it is quite casual and bring "love" or "respect" into it is just a bar too high. Safe, Sane, Consensual tends to be the buzzword and even that draws flack from within that community because some people view what they do as not quite ... well sane and they want to acknowledge that people are "risk-aware."

To me I think your foundation is good and people should realize that tends to work the best. But if you're educating kids about the world they are embarking on because their sex hormones have started firing, they better know the risks and the types of people and relationships they're prone to encounter.

Just that amount of complexity alone takes people a while to figure out. So if were discussing rape, that's why I think it's best to focus on what legally is rape only. Hard and fast rules are more easily understandable and don't cause confusion.

But I can absolutely teach someone to respect and love someone who later rapes the person they respect and love because they just don't understand when they've crossed the line.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

re: 2013 Study

I don't find that directly applicable to today's American society but it's not without value. It sort of shows what people who are not fluent in the language of what rape actually is do when they run around unaware. You want proof of what not teaching people what rape actually means results in? Read the questions answered yes in the study.

Why don't American's do that to the same degree? Well because even as much as things should be taught in schools or when kids are younger, a lot of people do figure out what those lines actually are on their own because those rules have become fairly defined in the west. The intriguing thing about the Asia study is that by omitting the word rape and instead describing the behavior they got so many men to admit to it. We have things like Lifetime original movies and SVU and a myriad of pop culture that at least gives us a passing acquaintance with the topic.

[Gravekeeper]

I'm talking more about just having this kind of education as part of other sex education. I'm not talking about having shrinks come to school and make a curriculum out of it, but simply give young students some exposure to what respect means.

You should read the guidelines for sex ed in Canada that I posted. As those are the sort of things sex ed up here tends to include. Let me quote a few of the more pertinent sections though in case you don't want to wade through the entire pdf:

Sexual Rights

“Sexual rights embrace human rights that
are already recognized in national laws,
international human rights documents and
other consensus statements. They include
the right of all persons, free of coercion,
discrimination and violence, to:

the highest attainable standard of sexual
health, including access to sexual and
reproductive health care services;

seek, receive and impart information
related to sexuality;

sexuality education;

respect for bodily integrity;

choose their partner;

decide to be sexually active or not;

consensual sexual relations;
consensual marriage;

decide whether or not, and when, to have
children; and

pursue a satisfying, safe and pleasurable
sexual life.

The responsible exercise of human rights
requires that all persons respect the rights
of others.”

EXPECTED CHARACTERISTICS

The sexual health education program emphasizes
the self-worth and dignity of the individual.

The sexual health education activity or program
instills awareness of the impact that one’s
behaviour can have on others.

The sexual health education program refl ects a
balanced approach to sexual health enhancement
and the prevention of negative outcomes.

The sexual health education program deals with
sexual health education as a lifelong process
requiring consideration at all ages and stages of life.

The sexual health education program assists
behavioural change through informed
individual choice.

Ensures that access and content do not
discriminate against individuals on the basis
of age, race, ethnicity, gender identity, sexual
orientation, socioeconomic background,
physical/cognitive abilities, religious background
and other such characteristics.

The sexual health education program counters
misunderstanding and reduces discrimination
based on the characteristics previously mentioned.

[TheHuckster]

i have to say, the first example in this paragraph bugs me. saying that a person at one point says "I'm here for a long-term relationship", and then changes their mind is now some sort of false pretense?

No, but I have known of assholes who just say that to get laid. That's a false pretense. What you're talking about is someone simply changing his mind, which is not a false pretense.

also, the idea that one-night stands (traditionally people picked up at a bar you don't know jack about) should have an emotional investment in their partners is silly. both the woman and man in a ONS were looking for sex, and they got sex. that doesn't mean they will now magically fall in love and live happily ever after. anyone who goes into a ONS thinking the other person is now suddenly their 'one twoo luv' needs to mature a lot before they should be picking up people at bars.

Yes, but it often doesn't bring happiness in the end for both partners. It might not happen the next morning, but eventually these kinds of escapades often lead to heartbreak and sadness. I'm not saying these are "bad" people and certainly not rapists, but it's something which I think people should be aware of.

if you're mature enough to be sleeping with people consensually, you also need to be mature enough to deal with the consequences of it. it's caller Personal Responsibility, and Being A Fucking Adult.

I agree, but I also believe people should be told of the possible consequences as part of sex ed. That's all.

You should read the guidelines for sex ed in Canada that I posted. As those are the sort of things sex ed up here tends to include. Let me quote a few of the more pertinent sections though in case you don't want to wade through the entire pdf

I think encouraging self-worth and making "informed decisions" go a long way. It's a difficult topic because on one hand, you don't want to encourage bad decisions that can lead to regret later on, but you also don't want to discourage it to the point where they are scared of sex.

[s_stabeler]

Yes, but it often doesn't bring happiness in the end for both partners. It might not happen the next morning, but eventually these kinds of escapades often lead to heartbreak and sadness. I'm not saying these are "bad" people and certainly not rapists, but it's something which I think people should be aware of.

true enough- but again, it comes under the realm of "is it really society's business?"- yes, one-night stands do often lead to heartbreak and sadness. But to be blunt? That's their decision to make.

[TheHuckster]

true enough- but again, it comes under the realm of "is it really society's business?"- yes, one-night stands do often lead to heartbreak and sadness. But to be blunt? That's their decision to make.

Of course it's their decision to make. What about educating people about the possible negative consequences of actions makes you think I'm "denying them a decision"?

[s_stabeler]

not quite what I meant. notice I prefaced it with "is it really society's business"- what I meant is that, ultimately, it's not society's job to force people to only make good decisions. Teaching people that they shouldn't have one-night stands, which is how it would end up, comes under that heading.

[TheHuckster]

not quite what I meant. notice I prefaced it with "is it really society's business"- what I meant is that, ultimately, it's not society's job to force people to only make good decisions. Teaching people that they shouldn't have one-night stands, which is how it would end up, comes under that heading.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Schools teach many things that are, ultimately, none of other people's business which are still beneficial to its students. Health class teaches a nutritious diet, even though what one eats is none of society's business. Health class also teaches about the perils of smoking cigarettes, which is also none of society's business. Math class often has some lessons in balancing a budget, which is also none of society's business.

Yet, as soon as someone comes and says, "Here's how not to treat your significant other like an asshole and why having a meaningful relationship is beneficial to you in the long run" people put up their pitchforks and scream, "You're infringing on our sexual freedom!" as if they're 17th century puritans.

Educating people about how to make good decisions does not mean "forcing them to make good decisions."

[Canarr]

An interesting article:

http://time.com/30545/its-time-to-en...ture-hysteria/

[Gravekeeper]

An unrepentant asshole:

http://www.billboard.com/articles/co...nts-no-contest