9 Year Old Accidently Kills Gun Instructor

[patiokitty]

woo, canada hi-5!

maybe that's part of why i don't get it. is it a cultural gap between us northlanders and the downstairs neighbours to let kids use firearms?

Y'know, I think it is!

I know whenever I have spoken to American friends of mine about gun control that some of them damn near tear my head off. If I make a comment about the higher rate of gun-related deaths in the US as compared to Canada, I get lectured about how I just don't understand American gun culture.

It's true, I don't understand why gun usage is so ingrained in American culture but not in Canadian culture. It simply does not compute. I know how to use a variety of guns - between living in the boonies and having been in army cadets I learned a heck of a lot. I do not own one, nor do I personally see the need to own one. I will likely never own one either, but that is my personal choice. I even live in a shitty neighbourhood but the weapons of choice around here seems to be knives...and knives honestly don't scare me that much. I am much deadlier with a broom than an attacker with a knife would be to me.

[TheHuckster]

It's true, I don't understand why gun usage is so ingrained in American culture but not in Canadian culture.

It's because the topic has become so friggen politicized AND polarized in the pop culture and the media that any time anyone even mentions doing a little bit of tightening on the background checks, people scream bloody murder as if you want to abolish all guns.

[NecCat]

I`m actually from rural Canada too, and I first went hunting with the family at 9 - bow season - and 10 - gun season. After spending almost 3 years on the firing range, learning proper gun safety, gun use and control. After 3 years of the one on one supervised instruction, that`s when my family decided I was ready. My brother came for both seasons the first time when he was 12, after 5 years on the shooting range. My parents thought he wasn`t taking the safety part seriously enough until then. I wasn`t allowed my own hide until I was 14, that`s when my parents felt I was responsible enough not to be supervised by an adult at all times with a shotgun in my hand.

That`s part of the reason why I don`t want my son on a paintball gun until well after he is old enough to responsibly shoot a gun; a paintball gun is, at it`s heart, a toy. People play with them. I don`t want him treating guns as a toy. I want him to be safe first, and always.

And no, I am not giving him a choice if he learns to shoot or not (it will be his choice if he wants to hunt though), just like I`m not giving him a choice if he wants to learn to swim, cook, use a saw, or anything else that he might need to know for safety reasons one day. It`s his choice if he wants to learn baseball, hockey, quilting, or guitar, but if it`s a lifeskill he needs to stay safe, he`s going to learn it. Before he is a teenager and has stopped listening to me for a while.

[the_std]

And no, I am not giving him a choice if he learns to shoot or not (it will be his choice if he wants to hunt though), just like I`m not giving him a choice if he wants to learn to swim, cook, use a saw, or anything else that he might need to know for safety reasons one day. It`s his choice if he wants to learn baseball, hockey, quilting, or guitar, but if it`s a lifeskill he needs to stay safe, he`s going to learn it. Before he is a teenager and has stopped listening to me for a while.

I seem to remember you live in Ontario, correct? I fail to see how him learning to shoot is really considered a "safety reason". Unless he desires to learn how to hunt, how is his using a gun a necessary skill?

[NecCat]

Not so much using, but general gun safety. Everyone I know has a gun. Everyone at work hunts. In many of the houses I work in I see guns, in the garage, the attic, whatever. Most of his friends or friends parents will have guns, most of his friends will end up hunting. guaranteed he will end up in the same room with a gun or three in his life, he needs to know general safety rules. How to pick it up, how to hold it, how to safely hand it to someone, whatever.

[the_std]

Not so much using, but general gun safety. Everyone I know has a gun. Everyone at work hunts. In many of the houses I work in I see guns, in the garage, the attic, whatever. Most of his friends or friends parents will have guns, most of his friends will end up hunting. guaranteed he will end up in the same room with a gun or three in his life, he needs to know general safety rules. How to pick it up, how to hold it, how to safely hand it to someone, whatever.

Ah, for some reason, I thought you lived in a more urban environment. Even coming from a rural background, I don't know anyone or any situation where I would absolutely have to know gun safety, or that I would be exposed to guns without my express consent before hand.

[siead_lietrathua]

Not so much using, but general gun safety. Everyone I know has a gun. Everyone at work hunts. In many of the houses I work in I see guns, in the garage, the attic, whatever. Most of his friends or friends parents will have guns, most of his friends will end up hunting. guaranteed he will end up in the same room with a gun or three in his life, he needs to know general safety rules. How to pick it up, how to hold it, how to safely hand it to someone, whatever.

again, you can learn that guns are dangerous without ever firing one. if you tell your kid he can't use a gun until he learns how, he can't learn how until you say it's ok, and he could KILL someone if they fuck around with guns, the kid is probably not gonna fuck with them.

but aside from that, i don't think it's right to force a kid to learn to use a gun. you can explain how to use them, but to actually make them pick one up and pull a trigger when they have no desire or ambition to seems wrong to me. wait until they want to, whether it's at 13 or 30. not everyone wants to use an item that's designed to kill. and that's perfectly fine! it's not a skill you can only learn as a child, they have their whole lives to actually fire a gun.

and it's not a necessary life skill in canada unless you live somewhere more than an easy trip from, say, the grocery store. guns are not a live-or-die life skill anymore.

[bex1218]

I and many people I know haven't held a gun until our teens and we still knew proper safety. And I live in Florida. A lot of gun happy people here.

[patiokitty]

Unless you live in the rough parts of Toronto, I really don't see the need to learn to shoot a gun. I can see it for hunting reasons the further out from the city you are, but that is really about it.

I honestly think that learning how to safely handle and shoot guns is a personal choice, and not necessarily one that should be the choice of the parent. My own mother - from rural Ontario - hates guns and got bent right out of shape when I started into being trained on how to use guns. It was MY choice to get that training and while my mother signed off on the paperwork she was very vocally against it...I was all of 12 when I started.

[Gravekeeper]

our dad taught us how guns work without us ever laying a finger on them until we were teenagers, and he gave us the choice as to whether or not we wanted to use them, didn't force us to fire them on the off chance we might be interested in it as adults.

Yes, I didn't fire a gun till I was 11-12ish? But they had been around in the house since I was 6-7 and I knew what they were, that they were not toys and why I should not be touching them. And I learned on a .22 caliber bolt action rifle which I could safely handle the recoil of. Never had any interest beyond it either. I was taught how to use it safely and properly for a couple summers and that was that. Never touched one again nor had any interest in doing so.

Guns just aren't a thing in Canada or Canadian culture.

A-freaking-men. You said it way better than I could. I, like Gravekeeper, am a Canadian who grew up in rural life. I've used shotguns ever since my 13th birthday. It's not a "oooo guns are bad and scary", it's a level of responsibility with a DEADLY WEAPON. Seriously.

Yes. I mean I learned how to use it safely and that was that. Had no interest in it otherwise nor any need for it.

I know whenever I have spoken to American friends of mine about gun control that some of them damn near tear my head off.

I know what you mean. I have a few American friends that are perfectly reasonable people from blue western states but the moment anything about guns comes up; Its like you just suggested we go drown a bag of kittens in a septic tank.

t's true, I don't understand why gun usage is so ingrained in American culture but not in Canadian culture. It simply does not compute.

I think it stands alone in American culture. There's no other western culture that possesses near the same fanatical level of gun culture as the US. I mean I understand the gun as an almost mythological focal point of early American history. But its carried over far far beyond the point where the country actually needed an armed militia to ward off Indians and the British.

Guns and celebrated and deified. Whereas in Canada they are seen as tools that carry a purpose and responsibility. ( I'm not saying there are not responsible gun owners in the US, put the claws away ). But in the US there's a distinct Guns = Awesome vibe. Whereas elsewhere they are seen as tools to kill. Which they are.

I do not own one, nor do I personally see the need to own one. I will likely never own one either, but that is my personal choice. I even live in a shitty neighbourhood but the weapons of choice around here seems to be knives...and knives honestly don't scare me that much. I am much deadlier with a broom than an attacker with a knife would be to me.

Likewise on the owning of one. I don't live in a shitty neighbourhood though. I did work in the middle of downtown Vancouver for 10 years though. Never once saw a gun. Or any weapon for that matter. I've seen a crazy homeless guy try to bludgeon a 7/11 clerk with a frozen burrito. But thats about it.

If you wander the downtown core of Vancouver at 3am your biggest danger is how cheap the pot is.

I honestly think that learning how to safely handle and shoot guns is a personal choice, and not necessarily one that should be the choice of the parent.

I'm inclined to agree. You can teach a child something is dangerous without having them embrace said danger. I mean I knew guns were dangerous and not to touch them before I even saw a real one around the age of 6. And that was despite having the largest GI Joe army in the Maritimes. >.>

[patiokitty]

Likewise on the owning of one. I don't live in a shitty neighbourhood though. I did work in the middle of downtown Vancouver for 10 years though. Never once saw a gun. Or any weapon for that matter. I've seen a crazy homeless guy try to bludgeon a 7/11 clerk with a frozen burrito. But thats about it.

If you wander the downtown core of Vancouver at 3am your biggest danger is how cheap the pot is.

Hell, I lived in a bad area of Chilliwack a few moons ago and there was even a shooting a couple of blocks away from where I lived. Do I want to own a gun as a result of that? Nope, not in the slightest.

I've been in downtown Vancouver at ungodly hours of the night and I was never scared at all to be on my own. And this was even when I was much younger and better looking - I'd been approached by unsavoury folks, sure, but I never once felt in danger.

I don't think that owning a gun necessarily makes the owner 'safer', and that sort of mindset boggles me. I have other things at hand that I can use if I ever need to defend myself that make me feel a lot safer than a gun ever would. But then I was also never raised to hinge all of my feelings of safety on a gun.

Very few crimes here in NL involve guns, at least robberies and the like. The weapon of choice here tends to be knives.

[Gravekeeper]

Hell, I lived in a bad area of Chilliwack a few moons ago and there was even a shooting a couple of blocks away from where I lived. Do I want to own a gun as a result of that? Nope, not in the slightest.

And that was undoubtedly gang related. Its extremely hard to get shot in Canada unless you's part of one of the overseas / international gangs.

I don't think that owning a gun necessarily makes the owner 'safer', and that sort of mindset boggles me. I have other things at hand that I can use if I ever need to defend myself that make me feel a lot safer than a gun ever would. But then I was also never raised to hinge all of my feelings of safety on a gun.

Honestly, I look at a gun in a situation as a wildcard. If you can use it, so can they. If you have a gun and they don't you might lose control of it. If you have a gun and they have a gun someone is going to get hurt or killed because now there's a lethal confrontation. If they have a gun and you don't, well, they're going to take your wallet and your stereo but at least you're not dead.

It creates more problems than it solves. It has no real net effect on deterring crime and it certainly doesn't solve active shooter situations. The ones where the Good Guy With A Gun is suppose to save us all.

If someone breaks into my house with a knife, well, I have a katana. If someone breaks in with a shotgun, well, by all means take the TV. Just don't let the cat out. Thanks. If someone breaks in with a shotgun and I have a shotgun, well, one or both of us is going to die AND the cat is probably going to get out. All over the TV.

[NecCat]

I don't think that owning a gun necessarily makes the owner 'safer', and that sort of mindset boggles me. I have other things at hand that I can use if I ever need to defend myself that make me feel a lot safer than a gun ever would. But then I was also never raised to hinge all of my feelings of safety on a gun.

Honestly, I look at a gun in a situation as a wildcard. ....It creates more problems than it solves. It has no real net effect on deterring crime and it certainly doesn't solve active shooter situations. The ones where the Good Guy With A Gun is suppose to save us all.

No arguments here. My guns are out in the garage. The pins and springs are in a locked box in my bedroom. Extra ammunition is in a locked box in the garage. There is absolutely no thought in my mind of needing my gun in case of an intruder, or to keep me safer. Although if the wolves or a bear was sticking around instead of passing through, I could get one together, assembled and loaded in about 10 minutes if I was really worried. It`s not a matter of needing a gun on me, the only time I ever carry it is out in the woods, and there is a distinct lack of muggings there. It`s just that I know from experience that they are everywhere, and I`ve seen what ignorance can cause. (I was shot by an idiot hunter once!)

You are all agreeing that six year olds will understand guns are not toys and not to touch, and then it seems every year or more there is another story of a five or six year old shooting a parent, sibling or school friend. These kids are killing people because 1)Some idiot didn`t keep the gun locked up or decommissioned properly, and 2) These kids are ignorant about guns. A little knowledge goes a long way.

[patiokitty]

You are all agreeing that six year olds will understand guns are not toys and not to touch, and then it seems every year or more there is another story of a five or six year old shooting a parent, sibling or school friend. These kids are killing people because 1)Some idiot didn`t keep the gun locked up or decommissioned properly, and 2) These kids are ignorant about guns. A little knowledge goes a long way.

Okay, where do I indicate that that I allegedly agree that six year olds will understand anything? Their parents/caregivers need to instill in them that understanding in the first place.

I will agree that there are kids killing people for all the reasons you provided. However, the onus falls upon the parents for not having the sense to teach their kids gun safety. I firmly feel that kids should be brought up to know that guns are not toys, and parents should make damn good and sure that they are careful with any guns they may own. In so many of the cases that kids have killed others with guns it's been largely due to adult negligence of some sort - parents thinking their kids can handle weapons that are too big/strong for them, adults not properly securing their weapons, adults giving guns to kids and not supervising them or making sure they realize those guns are NOT toys, and I could so easily go on.

[siead_lietrathua]

You are all agreeing that six year olds will understand guns are not toys and not to touch...(snip)

we aren't saying don't teach kids about gun safety, period! we're saying you can teach a kid without them ever handling a live gun and firing it. i mean, geez, you can learn fire is hot without playing with the matches, you can learn a gun is dangerous without firing a bullet.

and i agree with patiokitty on the parent negligence when it comes to leaving their loaded guns lying around. if the parent isn't smart enough to observe proper firearm safety (or at least keep the guns somewhere the kids can't reach), then they probably never bothered teaching their kids that guns aren't toys.