Hannity Guest says Ray Rice is the real victim here

[KabeRinnaul]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/1...bigger-victim/

I'm amazed Hannity managed to find somebody so far out that it made him look like the reasonable one.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

The actual fuck....

Unrelated I actually do find that Janay has been victimized by the whole affair. I think punishing Ray is the correct response and the NFL should actually adopt a real no tolerance policy of one and done. Yea, people should make mistakes but the only way you're going to fix this one from happening in a culture already steeped in man-child coddling is putting up these financial suicide situations to where these guys notice and avoid it.

But that said, it wasn't just Ray's lifestyle that got impacted by this. It was hers which now does not have that family income. I get why, but from her perspective she essentially got beaten and then suffered a financial penalty for it. I have no idea how you could make that better, but it it is something I wish advocates would keep in mind and not imply that somehow she owes it to take one for the team on this.

Janay has every right to be livid as hell.

[Gravekeeper]

Remember this is the same network where Fox & Friends joked that the lesson here was to "Take the stairs" instead.

Janay has every right to be livid as hell.

She's livid as hell at the wrong people. But unfortunately, that's the pattern of domestic abuse for you. If he was willing to beat her unconcious in public, manhandled her body like garbage bag an lie to first responders about why she was on the floor; I mean there's no way this isn't the first time he's done something to her and it won't be the last.

The only small mercy is that the next time he does something there's video evidence to curtail the inevitable victim blaming bullshit.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

I disagree and I agree (huh?) She has every right to be mad at both. Ray is the cause and most directly responsible. He's the sine qua non of the whole thing. But people treating her situation as a political football or an abstraction of the "pattern of domestic violence" are forcing her and her family specifically to be the one that suffers the most (in terms of NFL families). From here on, others offenders and families can at least believe they were warned. We are witnessing a societal change, the beachhead of which is taking place in the Rice's relationship. It's going to feel arbitrary because really it is. The NFL (the one that signs their checks) are changing their approach based on this case.

To me, one can both acknowledge that the change has to happen AND be aware that what is going to happen in this case is going to be anomalous compared to what happened before or after. And that yes, Janay is a pawn in a larger goal. She does not need to be happy about it and she's not wrong for seeing it. It's obvious. You can't punish Ray without hurting her unless she had already left.

[Gravekeeper]

I disagree and I agree (huh?) She has every right to be mad at both. Ray is the cause and most directly responsible. He's the sine qua non of the whole thing. But people treating her situation as a political football or an abstraction of the "pattern of domestic violence" are forcing her and her family specifically to be the one that suffers the most (in terms of NFL families).

This entire situation is on Ray's shoulders. He is an abuser and a fuckhead. The only difference between him and every other fuckhead is that he got caught on camera. The NFL would have loved to just sweep this all under the rug in the name of the almighty dollar. But they to in effect got caught on camera.

Given that the alternative here is that she and her children live behind closed doors with this man and suffer who knows what else where no one can see. She can be mad at anyone she wants, and indeed that anger is also a part of domestic violence. But this is ultimately Ray Rice's fault and the more domestic abuse that gets dragged out into the light where others can help the better.

Its Ray Rice that hurt her. Its Ray Rice that convinced her this is partly her fault. Its Ray Rice that made her humiliate herself in a press conference. Its Ray Rice who is hurting her family.

You can't punish Ray without hurting her unless she had already left.

Welcome to the pattern of domestic violence.

[TheHuckster]

The way the commentator defended Ray Rice sounds like a really distasteful joke. "She hit the railing so you can't fault him."

That's about as low as you can go without resorting to, "She overcooked the chicken, what else is he supposed to do but give her a lesson?"

One of the big problems here is the police won't do anything if the victim doesn't press charges. In cases of domestic violence, I don't think there should be such a thing. The option to press charges should be reserved for petty crimes like trespassing, a minor assault charge (e.g. you got in some random fight with someone at a bar that lead to a shove or two), or petty theft that was resolved between the two parties.

As soon as it comes to blows, the option to not press charges should be thrown out the window.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

Causality does not work that way.

On September 11th, Osama Bin Ladin successfully executed the destruction of the World Trade Center with a base of operations in Afghanistan. On July 1st, 2003 30 Afghan nationals were killed at a wedding by an American bomb. With your logic, the person at fault is Osama bin Laden, not the pilot, not the military, not Bush that responded to a real demonstrable threat.

Ray Rice is responsible for his actions. Janay is responsible for hers after the fact (stay/leave). The NFL is responsible for their rules, not watching/watching the video and the punishment they gave. The public is responsible for how and what they asked for.

You can be glib about the cycle if you want, it doesn't change causality and it doesn't change the fact in this case it was arbitrary and unless enforced this way every time after, it was/will be capricious. You seem to think that because he started it, there's really no line that can be crossed by people, the NFL, etc. where the only culpable person is Ray Rice. It's just odd honestly. I don't really feel like going another round about it... it's just wtf?

[crashhelmet]

There's a horrible double standard here. What defines Domestic Violence? Is it ONLY Domestic Violence when a man hits a woman?

I am in no way defending Ray Rice for hitting her. I am in no way saying he was justified in hitting her the way he did.

But the fact remains that she attacked him repeatedly. She hit, spit, and clawed at him before he hit her.

If it had been another man attacking him, it would be called self defense and nothing more would be said about this.

If Janay Palmer (now Janay Rice) was the one that knocked out Ray Rice, people would be calling her a hero.

So I ask again...

What defines Domestic Violence? Is it ONLY Domestic Violence when a man hits a woman?

[Kheldarson]

So I ask again...

What defines Domestic Violence? Is it ONLY Domestic Violence when a man hits a woman?

Nope. It can be done by both genders, either direction ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence).

The biggest issue here is the perception of power. While Janay may have spat at him, he's the one who had the power to do (and did) serious harm. That's why both were arrested, but he was charged with aggravated assault.

Domestic violence is a pattern of behavior in which one partner tries to control/intimidate through physical means. In public, it often gets used to describe one off violent scenarios (that we know of) between partners. In the one off cases, blame generally gets put on the one who does the most damage and/or is the stronger partner.

[KabeRinnaul]

If you want to be strict, both committed domestic violence.

Realistically, you have to consider domestic violence (or domestic abuse in general, really) that actually causes harm. Remember who knocked who out. He could have pushed her, grabbed her, or restrained her, and I'd call it self defense.

Slugging her and laying her out in one hit? That's an angry man getting back at something that's offended him. There's no way Janay's actions would have resulted in real harm to Ray, and he had other options for dealing with her. Ray is a professional football player, and he could have easily hospitalized or killed her with his bare hands.

Edit: Kheldarson beat me to it.

[crashhelmet]

Kabe, you're right. Ray Rice could have easily done more damage than he did. He should've known better and shown more self-control. His actions are inexcusable. But again, if it had been a man that did it, regardless of size, there would be no discussion here.

My questions were rhetorical, but maybe now people will see the double-standard in this. Ray Rice was, in fact, a victim of domestic violence that night.

And again, you're right. He could've done just about anything else other than punch her. He could've restrained her. He could've continued to take the abuse from her until someone else broke it up.

[s_stabeler]

He could've continued to take the abuse from her until someone else broke it up.

actually, to be blunt? if someone spat at me, then the proper response probably IS to ignore it- or tell them to stop spitting at you- since ultimately, spitting at someone is basically disrespectful, rather than actually being an attack. CERTAINLY punching someone is a bit too far.

[crashhelmet]

actually, to be blunt? if someone spat at me, then the proper response probably IS to ignore it- or tell them to stop spitting at you- since ultimately, spitting at someone is basically disrespectful, rather than actually being an attack. CERTAINLY punching someone is a bit too far.

While spitting may be disrespectful and insulting, it's still considered assault. But she did more than spit at him. She also hit and scratched him.

[Greenday]

While spitting may be disrespectful and insulting, it's still considered assault. But she did more than spit at him. She also hit and scratched him.

Hm, was that what she was attempting to do before getting knocked out? Cause before she went at him, he went at her.

Based on all video evidence, he started it and he ended it.

What's sad is Ray Rice probably will sue the hell out of the NFL. He was already suspended once for the incident, now he's getting suspended a second time? Hell no, that'll never hold up in court.

[TheHuckster]

There's a huge difference between getting spat on and scratched up and knocking someone out, dragging her out of the elevator and lying to the police about it.

I think both of them have their faults, their relationship is extremely toxic, and it's hard for me to tell how much of an aggressor Janay was. However, Ray Rice brought it to seriously criminal levels by knocking her out. There's no amount of defending that can change that fact. Janay probably had some wrongs in this whole incident, but Rice's wrongs outdid her's.