and more NFL violence-Adrian Peterson

[Greenday]

"Fuck Her Right in the Pussy"

Oh, duh.

God save whoever drafts him. Guy is dumb as a stump.

[s_stabeler]

don't insult stumps- that guy is dumber. makes me wish there was a minimum intelligence for NFL players, actually. especiall when they can end up as role models.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

Greenday - I'd keep in mind that the whole arena is in flux so to speak. I don't think everything or nothing resolves in the next month. The bigger issue is the discussion is now being had whether some people want it or not.

My guess is, as things continually get exposed either society will start ignoring or start drawing lines. Here's where I stand on the issue myself: star athletes, celebrities, and politicians should not get more working privileges than myself - period. If anything, they already make more money than I do to withstand the temporary inconvenience of a trial. Were I accused and my work knew about it, I'm probably fired - not suspended.

The reason what I want isn't what happens though is just that it doesn't work in the hierarchy of professional sports. You end up with permissive culture because a high school coach who benches his once-in-a-lifetime superstar also just benched his college career. A college coach suffers the same punishment for having a moral spine. By the time they get to the NFL, the league can do whatever it wants but it's going to result in a harsh light being shined from top to bottom.

I love hockey myself. I'm talking hardcore fan, sorry hon I'll see you in two months after the playoffs kinda love (gross exaggeration). But even in that I have to deal with the Sevyon Varlamov kidnapping and hitting of his girlfriend. I just don't think the resolution to this is going to be short or knee jerky. I think TMZ will keep paying massive money for these tapes and we'll keep seeing it. And only after society either gets fed up OR gets really comfy with criminals paid millions of dollars will we know which way this is going to go.

At this point the leagues are probably going to have to find a way to govern themselves and their feeder systems or my guess is they'll start dealing regulatory pressure eventually. And that's the thing, you could probably get support for some law that eventually hits the NFL by selling it as regulating one of the smaller sports. Does Hope Solo have any business playing professional sports in women's soccer after attacking her nephew? Well if women's MLS won't deal with it, should the government?

That's how the conversation may shift if the leagues won't deal with it.

[Hyena Dandy]

I obviously can't say much about the NBA (other than that it's not an "America-Only" league, it has the same number of Canadian teams as the MLB) but I can say an interesting thing about the NFL.

Of course, it's hardly surprising the NFL would have more ARRESTS than any other league, its active roster is more than twice that of the NBA, MLB, or NHL (and that, of course, is also assuming the NFL's practice squads aren't tallied into the numbers, which would put the NFL up at 'more players per team than NBA, MLB, and NHL put together) What is surprising, though, is how that gets distributed.

The bottom team in arrests since 2000 is the St. Louis Rams, with 11 (I'm not giving the Texans credit for not having a player arrested while they weren't playing.) The top team in terms of arrests is the Minnesota Vikings (Hello, Adrian) with 44. (If this was tallied before Peterson, then the Vikings have 45. If this was after both, then the Cardinals have 11 as well. ) THat is a pretty damn big difference.

In light of that, I think blaming the college system for it is a bit silly. The Rams and the Vikings get players out of the same system, but St. Louis has kept them fairly reasonably law-abiding, while Minnesota appears to be composed of actual vikings. For this reason, I suspect that the per-capita method of analysis is a poor one.

The brain injury thing is another possibility, but it's similarly one that I doubt. Most NFL teams have a fairly even mix of older and younger players, and even the 'old' and 'young' teams have varied enough that there would presumably be some change. However, interestingly enough, the arrest rates by team have been very consistent, and yet many teams that are 'young' now were 'old' fairly recently, and vice-versa, while many 'old' teams now were 'young' at the start of the analysis period.

And yet, the arrest rate per team is pretty even across a 14 year period. If it was random, the teams would likely go up and down. But they don't. If specific universities were the problem, then the teams who draft out of Scumbag U would likely have more jerkass players than the teams who draft out of St. Saintly Tech. But again, the teams are consistent regardless of their player's school affiliation.

Coaching staff? Possibly, but coaching staffs change a lot. Over 14 years, no team has had the same coaches.

In fact, the only thing that seems to accurately predict what team will have the most arrests, is the team. The Vikings seem to be consistently high, regardless of makeup, while the Rams are consistently low. What gives?

In that sense, it only makes sense to blame the owners (though, obviously, the ultimate blame is on the players who commit crimes) and whether that's "Take less care about who they bring on the team" (the Patriots (15) ownership takes pride in the idea that their team is clean and respectful) or a culture at the top that bleeds down (anecdotally, I've heard that the Vikings front office is a hell of a place to work, and not in a good way, if you're not an executive) I'm not sure, but the numbers are what they are.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/up...abt=0002&abg=0

It's like they're not even trying anymore...

And yet this year has a chance of having the lowest number of NFL player arrests in the last decade, and definitely down from the mid-2000s.

When you factor that in its wildly disproportionate. The per capita rate of domestic violence against the average age bracket of NFL wives vs household income ( greater than $75,000 annual ) is around 1.5 per 1000.

I'm not sure this is a great comparison, though. The NFL players, in general, are more likely to come out of a lower bracket, and have a far more aggressive, physical job than most people in that bracket.

[Hyena Dandy]

Additional point about per-capita: It's generally a poor idea to apply measures of per-capita to small groups, but especially so for groups like the NBA which, with 419 players, comes in at under 1,000 people. If one NBA player is arrested in a year, then the NBA would have a per-capita rate above 2.3.

[Gravekeeper]

I obviously can't say much about the NBA (other than that it's not an "America-Only" league, it has the same number of Canadian teams as the MLB) but I can say an interesting thing about the NFL.

Well, that shows how popular basketball is up here. I completely forgot about that. >.>

Of course, it's hardly surprising the NFL would have more ARRESTS than any other league, its active roster is more than twice that of the NBA, MLB, or NHL (and that, of course, is also assuming the NFL's practice squads aren't tallied into the numbers, which would put the NFL up at 'more players per team than NBA, MLB, and NHL put together).

Which is why using something like per capita is a way to get a rough comparison going. Plus, the NBA is 1/4th the size of the NFL but nips on its heels in terms of arrest rates. It even beats the NFL in arrest rates some years.

Also, in fairness you're overestimating the NFL roster. While it is the largest of the 4, it is not larger than the other 3 put together when you include practice squads. Since you would also have to include the same for the other 3. Its also not twice the size of all of the other 3. Its twice the size of the NHL, but not the MLB which is actually rather large.

The NBA is the smallest by far ( Which raises some questions about its arrest rates ).

The bottom team in arrests since 2000 is the St. Louis Rams, with 11 (I'm not giving the Texans credit for not having a player arrested while they weren't playing.) The top team in terms of arrests is the Minnesota Vikings (Hello, Adrian) with 44.

Total arrests aren't really the whole story as I was talking about before in terms of domestic abuse being disproportionate. If you look at domestic abuse alone for example, its the Broncos that are #1. In terms of the Rams and the Vikings, the Vikings have more arrests total but domestic abuse arrests are near the same.

The Vikings seem rather remarkably adept at DUI though. >.>

In light of that, I think blaming the college system for it is a bit silly. The Rams and the Vikings get players out of the same system, but St. Louis has kept them fairly reasonably law-abiding, while Minnesota appears to be composed of actual vikings.

The problem with that though is that there's a selection process between the talent pool and the teams. Both these teams are scouting their selections. Is St Louis less likely to scout assholes than Minnesota?

As you mentioned, different teams have much different player and staff cultures.

The brain injury thing is another possibility, but it's similarly one that I doubt. Most NFL teams have a fairly even mix of older and younger players, and even the 'old' and 'young' teams have varied enough that there would presumably be some change.

Yeah, its not the only sport with a concussion problem. So I don't think that's much of a factor.

However, interestingly enough, the arrest rates by team have been very consistent, and yet many teams that are 'young' now were 'old' fairly recently, and vice-versa, while many 'old' teams now were 'young' at the start of the analysis period.

Which likely speaks to what sort of scouting they do and what they look for.

But again, the teams are consistent regardless of their player's school affiliation.

Do we have data on school affiliation? Hard to say one way or another without some more pointless research on my part because I have nothing better to do ( sob ).

I'm not sure this is a great comparison, though. The NFL players, in general, are more likely to come out of a lower bracket, and have a far more aggressive, physical job than most people in that bracket.

That doesn't hold up when you compare it to the NHL though. A sport where fist fights are permitted. -.-

[Gravekeeper]

Additional point about per-capita: It's generally a poor idea to apply measures of per-capita to small groups, but especially so for groups like the NBA which, with 419 players, comes in at under 1,000 people. If one NBA player is arrested in a year, then the NBA would have a per-capita rate above 2.3.

In fairness I was using 1000 per capita as to avoid having to use figures like 0.0456 per capita if I went any lower. You can move the decimal point one notch and have 100 per capita if you want. >.>

[Hyena Dandy]

That doesn't hold up when you compare it to the NHL though. A sport where fist fights are permitted. -.-

Except I wasn't talking about comparison to the NHL. You made a comparison to the population at large. I think that the population at large of people making over 75k a year is likely mostly people who come from a different socioeconomic bracket, and who are regularly asked to do different things, and thus, it is probably not a fair comparison to compare NFL players to the other people in their tax bracket.

Also, in fairness you're overestimating the NFL roster. While it is the largest of the 4, it is not larger than the other 3 put together when you include practice squads. Since you would also have to include the same for the other 3. Its also not twice the size of all of the other 3. Its twice the size of the NHL, but not the MLB which is actually rather large.

You're the one who found the numbers, you tell me where these come from. >_<

In fairness I was using 1000 per capita as to avoid having to use figures like 0.0456 per capita if I went any lower. You can move the decimal point one notch and have 100 per capita if you want. >.>

My point, rather, was that you should have found a different way of measuring. If ONE player was arrested, he would personally drive the NBA's per-capita arrest rate. Having a per-capita higher than most other leagues is partially because they're so small that having, say, two or three guys who are just jackasses is going to push them up.

Which likely speaks to what sort of scouting they do and what they look for.

As I said, that's one possibility, the other being the corporate offices. I can't tell which it is, though, because even WITH a good amount of work, I don't know who makes the decisions on each team, and in some cases that may have changed. Every team gets the same scouting report, though, so they all would KNOW about any personality issues.

The problem with that though is that there's a selection process between the talent pool and the teams. Both these teams are scouting their selections. Is St Louis less likely to scout assholes than Minnesota?

And my point was that it's probably not accurate to blame the college system, because most NFL players are coming from the same college SYSTEM. As for specific colleges... A quick glance at rosters looks pretty uniform. Largely the same few schools, with a few less likely ones that pop up, and then a couple rarities with only a couple on any team. If your looking through gives you a different impression, let me know.

Do we have data on school affiliation? Hard to say one way or another without some more pointless research on my part because I have nothing better to do ( sob ).

Yep. Just search for Team Rosters.

Total arrests aren't really the whole story as I was talking about before in terms of domestic abuse being disproportionate. If you look at domestic abuse alone for example, its the Broncos that are #1. In terms of the Rams and the Vikings, the Vikings have more arrests total but domestic abuse arrests are near the same.

If you want to talk about something other than total arrests, don't bring up total arrests. I wasn't saying that the NFL is a haven of perfect behavior, only that the total arrest numbers, which you brought up, do not paint a totally accurate picture of the league at large, due to the discrepancy between various teams.

[Gravekeeper]

Except I wasn't talking about comparison to the NHL. You made a comparison to the population at large. I think that the population at large of people making over 75k a year is likely mostly people who come from a different socioeconomic bracket, and who are regularly asked to do different things, and thus, it is probably not a fair comparison to compare NFL players to the other people in their tax bracket.

But if you make that argument you can't escape a comparison to the NHL. Its an equally physical and aggressive sport with players that come from a different socioeconomic background than the one they end up in. Yet it doesn't have a domestic violence problem.

You're the one who found the numbers, you tell me where these come from. >_<

NFL teams can have up to 53 people on an active roster as well as up to a 10 person practice squad. So if all 32 teams have a full active roster and the max allowed practice squad you're looking at 2016 or 1696 without practice squads.

MLB has an active roster of 25-26 per team per game but a signed roster of 40 that they can pull from. So 30 x 40 for 1200 players or so. Their website is not as helpful as the NHL or NBA so the exact number eludes me.

The NHL has exactly 886 players as of the 2013-2014 season per NHL.com. But NHL teams all have associated farm teams that they can call players up from or send them back too.

The NBA has exactly 482 players per NBA.com.

My point, rather, was that you should have found a different way of measuring. If ONE player was arrested, he would personally drive the NBA's per-capita arrest rate. Having a per-capita higher than most other leagues is partially because they're so small that having, say, two or three guys who are just jackasses is going to push them up.

But that is why you use per capita. To get a unified rate of measurement across differently sized groups. If you have a different way of measuring it, by all means. All the articles and research on the subject I can find use per capita measurements.

And besides, regardless of the pros and cons of the per capita measurement the NFL still has a big problem with domestic violence being a disproportionately large part of its violent arrests. When compared both to the public and to other sports leagues.

As I said, that's one possibility, the other being the corporate offices. I can't tell which it is, though, because even WITH a good amount of work, I don't know who makes the decisions on each team, and in some cases that may have changed. Every team gets the same scouting report, though, so they all would KNOW about any personality issues.

Yeah, I can't dig up much here either.

And my point was that it's probably not accurate to blame the college system, because most NFL players are coming from the same college SYSTEM. As for specific colleges... A quick glance at rosters looks pretty uniform. Largely the same few schools, with a few less likely ones that pop up, and then a couple rarities with only a couple on any team. If your looking through gives you a different impression, let me know.

Meaning it might come back around to filtering and team culture for all we know. The college system was just a possibility I ventured at in my original post based on the past and current behaviour of said schools and colleges. Especially in regards to their sports teams.

Yep. Just search for Team Rosters.

Ugh. This is becoming more work than its worth =p

If you want to talk about something other than total arrests, don't bring up total arrests. I wasn't saying that the NFL is a haven of perfect behavior, only that the total arrest numbers, which you brought up, do not paint a totally accurate picture of the league at large, due to the discrepancy between various teams.

I did not bring up "total arrest" numbers. I brought up per capita rates. Also its pretty much impossible to analyze this statistically without using total arrests as a data point. Like I said we can adjust the per capita up or down if you want. The math is the same. We can do this at a per capita of 10 if you like. It just means more numbers to the right of the decimal.

[Hyena Dandy]

I did not bring up "total arrest" numbers. I brought up per capita rates.

Per capita rates which were based on total arrest numbers. And adjusting the per capita doesn't address the actual problem that I had with the use of something like that. Per Capita will take the NFL as a whole, and my point was that taking the NFL as a whole is a bad measure, due to the quite large difference between teams. The per capita for total arrest rate is (unsurprisingly) close to the average arrests, but there's a pretty large difference in team arrests.

But if you make that argument you can't escape a comparison to the NHL. Its an equally physical and aggressive sport with players that come from a different socioeconomic background than the one they end up in. Yet it doesn't have a domestic violence problem.

To make a technical point, the NHL's 'comes from' avrage is higher than the NFL average, which is higher than the NBA average, due to the restrictions of equipment fields. But again, I'm not saying the NFL is perfect. I'm just saying that the comparison that you made, between NFL players, and the population at large making more than 75k, was not a good one to use. I'm not trying to 'Escape' anything.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

You're not wrong. I'm an NHL guy and I'm fine with that but the equipment to play that game starts at well over 200 dollars unless you're getting some really ratty equipment and that's for every level and every size that you grow.

Jones who was the #4 in the NHL draft a year ago pick was the son of Popeye Jones the NBA player and grew up in Colorado and Dallas. By the time you mix in paid practice time on ice, equipment, etc. you may be looking at tens of thousands of dollars over the course of bringing a kid to the NHL. A lot of guys in the NBA, NFL, and even MLB wouldn't have had the ability unless they'd grown up in a naturally cold climate and been on scholarship.

[Gravekeeper]

Per capita rates which were based on total arrest numbers. And adjusting the per capita doesn't address the actual problem that I had with the use of something like that. Per Capita will take the NFL as a whole, and my point was that taking the NFL as a whole is a bad measure, due to the quite large difference between teams. The per capita for total arrest rate is (unsurprisingly) close to the average arrests, but there's a pretty large difference in team arrests.

Differences in team arrests is fine. Thats a deeper level of complexity. But if we start that, we have to do the same for individual teams in other leagues as well. Do either of us feel like doing THAT much statistical research? -.-

Also, regardless of per capita, the stats in regards to the original issue, domestic violence, still stand and display a problem. Especially given that as I pointed out before while the Rams and the Vikings have a wide gap in arrests, they are actually almost equal on domestic violence arrests. Where they widely differ is DUI arrests. But that can be anything from management / club culture to state or local laws or policing differences for all we know.

Ugh, fark it, okay, here we go: There are only 5 ( out of 32 ) teams in the league that do not have any domestic violence arrests on their record and only 4 that have no record of any sort of domestic ( be it violence or abuse ). The average seems to be around 3ish arrests per team. With some strange high points like Denver and Seattle. Highlights include punching a pregnant woman and ramming the car with your fiancee and children in it with your Hummer.

The punishments are consistently fucking laughable across all teams. Typically a 10k donation to a charity and some sort of diversion program.

To make a technical point, the NHL's 'comes from' avrage is higher than the NFL average, which is higher than the NBA average, due to the restrictions of equipment fields.

Both hockey and football have a problem with costs, fees and equipment. Its cheaper to play baseball or basketball. But at the same time, arrest rates and arrest types are very different between the MLB and NBA as well. So I'm not sure how well that really pans out. The MLB is a large league, the second largest, but its beaten handily by the NFL and NBA when it comes to crime rates. The NBA even beats the NFL some years.

But again, I'm not saying the NFL is perfect. I'm just saying that the comparison that you made, between NFL players, and the population at large making more than 75k, was not a good one to use.

Its relevant in demonstrating that NFL players as a group have a disproportionately high rate of domestic violence. Compared to both other leagues and the general public.

Also, I had a stick to play hockey with. That was it. A stick. <shakes fist>. ;p

[Gravekeeper]

Okay, I'm going to try something really stupid and time consuming. Try and figure out if there are specific asshole schools or if its a more global problem to school.

Lets do this. Hoo-rah ;p

Okay, first up, college football consistently has the most arrests of any college sport. By a very large margin ( larger than the proportional sizes of each sport ) So we're on the right track(?).

First thing that leaps out:

Iowa State, University of Iowa, Washington State and the University of Oklahoma are consistently some of the worst offenders each year. With Florida State, Tennesse Middle State, Uni of Georgia and Uni of Alabama jockeying for position with them.

So there is as wide a spread of arrests between colleges as there are between NFL teams. But it would take a few hours to line up players by school affiliation. I have the data but its not organized in any kind of helpful way, qq

[Hyena Dandy]

Both hockey and football have a problem with costs, fees and equipment. Its cheaper to play baseball or basketball. But at the same time, arrest rates and arrest types are very different between the MLB and NBA as well. So I'm not sure how well that really pans out. The MLB is a large league, the second largest, but its beaten handily by the NFL and NBA when it comes to crime rates. The NBA even beats the NFL some years.

Youth football is cheaper, though. Because youth football has fewer costs than hockey.

Here's the thing, most people who play football in the pros, played in college. Most football players in college played in highschool. Same with basketball, and, one would assume, baseball.

But a basketball court is small and easy to make. You can find one on most city streets, in residential areas. Your school will likely have a gym, and therefore, most any school has a basketball court, because you had to have somewhere for PE to happen.

If your school has the space, there's also a fairly good chance you'll have a field, which can do double duty. Your field can host soccer, football, pep rallys, band performances... If you have a field, you have plenty you can do with it.

The poor tend to be in rural, or urban areas. The urban ones are unlikely to have a football field. Baseball diamonds are a bit less likely, but not totally unlikely. But the main thing stopping a lot of people who ended up in the NBA from playing baseball and football as kids isn't that the places they went couldn't afford equipment, but that they couldn't afford a field. And a hockey rink? That's far more expensive, because you need to take more care of it year round, it has higher power consumption, and a hockey rink is likely to be only that - A hockey rink. Unless you're a pro team, you're unlikely to have much multitasking you can do with that. I went to a pretty well-off school, and we didn't have a highschool ice-hockey team.

Similar things happen in youth leagues. Your youth league can probably pretty easy find a place to rent for soccer, because they just need a field. Bit more difficult for Pop Warner football, but they can pull similar things. But hockey? They need to rent rinks on top of all the rest, and there's more likely to be a rink in an affluent area, meaning way more travel time, thus cost, for the less well-off.

Pop Warner football costs $75-200 in league fees, not counting equipment or travel. The local hockey league, meanwhile, is $385.

Youth league players of all sorts need to buy their equipment, rent areas of play, and pay people to administer the league. So there's more expenses, and the more expensive the place you rent, the higher the cost.

My guess is that baseball would be slightly higher as far as where people come from go, if they're from America or Canada, but it would be brought down a lot by foreign players.

Its relevant in demonstrating that NFL players as a group have a disproportionately high rate of domestic violence. Compared to both other leagues and the general public.

Except it's slightly LOWER than the general public, unless you exclude a good amount of the general public, and my point was that I felt that that exclusion did not make for a good comparison. A point you still haven't addressed, because you keep changing the topic to other professional leagues. I feel like we're playing find the lady here. My view is that, because the best way to predict if someone will be an abusive spouse is if they were exposed to that as a child, and football players come from a broad amount of the populace, while people making over $75k are more likely to come from homes making over $75k, then comparing them only to people making over $75k is a bad idea.

[crashhelmet]

The NHL has exactly 886 players as of the 2013-2014 season per NHL.com. But NHL teams all have associated farm teams that they can call players up from or send them back too.

MLB has their own farm system that they promote from and/or demote to and the NBA has a new Developmental League, aka the "D League" they use for a farm system.

The NFL is the only league, out of the major 4, that doesn't have a farm system outside of the collegiate sports level.