Voices pt2

[s_stabeler]

can I just make a point? this is exactly what caused the last thread to get locked! can we please quit arguing the nuances of mental conditions V mental illnesses, and if schizophrenia is detectable on an MRI scan? Gilhemi asked for advice about hearing voices. Please can we get to the actual point- which what ( if anything) it is recommended that Gilhemi should do.

[siead_lietrathua]

Gilhemi:

hi, another voice-hearer hear. one who frankly had to skip reading replies after the first two pages*, so i hope you're still reading and you get this.
whether you believe the voices in your head are spiritual or caused by mental illness, please make sure to seek some counseling if you find that they begin to overpower, or to blur into, "you". while we can learn to live with our voices, as you seem to have as well, sometimes they can try to almost take over. and some of them are not very nice about it. for example, i had one as a child that would constantly try to convince me to kill myself, and it almost succeeded once or twice.
therapy could also help to figure out what type of voices you have. if they are from schizophrenia, as some mentioned, it might be useful to know what to expect as you get older. what signs to look for. if it's a split-persona sort of issue, you might be able to find how it was caused, and how to reassemble those splits if you later decide to. if it's simply your way of coping with life, like journaling is for some people, than you know it will be nothing to worry about later.

*****

to everyone else (and all "you" are generic):

nice to see that the stigma that mentally ill people cannot function like "normal" people is alive and well. sigh.

look, not all mental illnesses are the same.
some of us CAN live and function without any medication. same as the person that has a bum knee.
some of us need medication to be able to function like others. so do people with ulcers.
some of us cannot be cured even with medication. neither can amputees.
some of us may get worse over time, even with medication. so true of people with arthritis.

if you wouldn't belittle people with any of those physical ailments, then stop doing it to those of us with mental issues. it's dehumanizing to be told that because you're mentally ill, you cannot function. or worse, to be told that because you CAN function you must be not be mentally ill.

Gilhemi seems to be one of us that can function. and that's great. but by throwing around things like how mentally ill people aren't able to function, you could be harming him/her/them. i know i certainly was offended by it. by telling us that we are not normal, you make us not want to seek help and not want to even speak about it anymore. and silence is fucking deadly when your mind is what is making you sick.

[Gravekeeper]

nice to see that the stigma that mentally ill people cannot function like "normal" people is alive and well. sigh.

You skip the thread and this is the conclusion you come too? Maybe you should actually read the thread before you get holier than thou and insult everyone. At no point has anyone been talking like you're accusing. In fact its been pretty much the complete opposite.

[Andara Bledin]

You skip the thread and this is the conclusion you come too? Maybe you should actually read the thread before you get holier than thou and insult everyone. At no point has anyone been talking like you're accusing. In fact its been pretty much the complete opposite.

I read the first one and this one in it's entirety, and I get the same sense of stigma as Siead. Not from anything said directly, but choice of word and phrase have not been favorable.

[siead_lietrathua]

You skip the thread and this is the conclusion you come too? Maybe you should actually read the thread before you get holier than thou and insult everyone. At no point has anyone been talking like you're accusing. In fact its been pretty much the complete opposite.

i did not skip reading the whole thread. i read the first two pages before replying. which i stated. don't put words in my mouth.

i did not direct quote people to avoid personal attacks. i clarified that i was using the generic "you" for the same reason. if i was going to use personal attacks, i would have direct quoted the shit that pissed me off. so excuse me if you think i came off as holier than thou (nice insult btw /s) when the worst thing i said was, what, calling mentally ill people abnormal is stigmatizing them? because that is just true.

the first page of this thread alone had several instances where it is said that mentally ill people cannot function normally. it had a few instances where people were saying that if someone can function, they must not REALLY be mentally ill. THAT is an insult, and it's one that anyone with a mental illness should fight back against. because we can function normally. it may require treatment, just like a physical illness, but to say we cannot function normally, that we are doomed to only get worse, or that we must be 'not reallly sick' when we are not showing symptoms, is cruel and will do nothing but damage any progress someone with mental health issues has had in their recovery.

GK, you have mental health issues. you should know how much of a slap in the damn face it is for you to talk about your issues and have it brushed off with a "but you seem normal. you can't really be mentally ill!" "oh it can't be that bad, after all you are doing (XYZ)".

we can encourage Gilhemi, and others with an illness, to seek medical help without essentially calling them weirdos. and if it's bad of me to say that, well i'm an unrepentant terrible person for standing up for my kind.

[NecCat]

I also hear voices, I am a diagnosed schizophrenic and I have a random assortment of accompanying mental illness' to go along with it. I too have read both threads through, multiple times, and I have not been offended by anything posted, nor do I sense any stigma about the mentally ill. On the contrary I feel like I personally would be welcomed by the posters here, and also that I would be welcome to share my experience if I wished.

Gilhelmi: I too hope you are still reading. After ruling out the possibility of a physical problem with your brain, I would also encourage you to seek help of a trained psychiatrist. The reasoning for this is not a goal of getting you to conform with whatever random standards society has for thought, or with the objective of convincing you to medicate in an effort to erase a part of yourself you appreciate. The goal is to give you the best chance of being able to live your life successfully, as you are currently, for all of your life.

The problem, as you say, is that you have lost much of your trust, and it takes time to put that back together again. If what you are experiencing is a result of an undiagnosed mental illness, there exists a good possibility that this condition will not remain static, but will get better and worse as time goes on, often with a gradual downwards trend, with each day being alike enough with the last that you don't notice you have gone from happy to suffering until it is much too late. It is also possible that it can get much worse very quickly, before you have time to even react. By seeking help now, you can establish a bond with a mental health professional, they can slowly prove that you should trust them, now, while your judgement is sound. Should there come a time when you are unable to do your life very well on your own, you can start treatment with a mental health professional that you do and can trust, which will greatly increase your chance of success.

I don't know what options are available in your area, but there is also not enough good doctors around here. I currently have video conference in a nearby hospital with a psychiatrist from a large city several hours away, and counselling with a local therapist who monitors my signs and symptoms and keeps the psychiatrist up to date on any changes he notices. Despite a lack of local 'good doctors' there will hopefully be options for you to develop a relationship with someone good.

[Gravekeeper]

I read the first one and this one in it's entirety, and I get the same sense of stigma as Siead. Not from anything said directly, but choice of word and phrase have not been favorable.

The choice of word and phrase has largely been an odd argument of semantics.

the first page of this thread alone had several instances where it is said that mentally ill people cannot function normally. it had a few instances where people were saying that if someone can function, they must not REALLY be mentally ill. THAT is an insult, and it's one that anyone with a mental illness should fight back against.

Gah, but that's the thing, that is the definition of mental illness. I don't understand why this is so hard. This is all just semantics. Read the thread, please. I'll even help:

I agree, but you may want to consider another option. Mental conditions are not the same as mental illnesses. Like I said before, a condition is like skin color (everyone has a shade). Where an illness needs to be treated or it will get worse.

IF a person is not a dangerous to themselves or others and IF they can function normally in society (even if that person seems odd to other people), then are they really mentally ill or are they just different? Different in how they think and act?

But this is just a matter of semantics. A mental condition is officially referred to as a disorder and schizophrenia is officially classified as a disorder. The term "mental illness" is more of a layman's term and is used when a disorder is severe enough to interfere with quality of life or daily functioning.

If we get technical about it, you have a mental disorder, but I am mentally ill.

But yes, I agree with you that the state of mental health care and the cultural perception of it in America is really poor. If you are still enlisted in the military then doubly so. I can see why you would be wary about your experiences.

Mental condition, mental illness, mental disorder, psychiatric disorder, etc etc etc. The names and clear lines between them vary from country to country, from medical to legal, and so on. Becoming offended because someone isn't using what you think is the right term for it is honestly kind of a waste of energy.

However, the meaning of mental illness is when there is a mental health issue that is adversely affecting quality or life and has the potential to grow worse if untreated. Everyone has mental health issues from time to time in their lives. But mental illness is generally used for the tipping point for when it begins to impede function or quality of life.

Hence, Gilhemli is not mentally ill but does have a mental condition or a mental health issue if you perfer. I am mentally ill.

I also hear voices, I am a diagnosed schizophrenic and I have a random assortment of accompanying mental illness' to go along with it. I too have read both threads through, multiple times, and I have not been offended by anything posted, nor do I sense any stigma about the mentally ill. On the contrary I feel like I personally would be welcomed by the posters here, and also that I would be welcome to share my experience if I wished.

I thought we were doing quite well until this weird thing over terms.

[siead_lietrathua]

The choice of word and phrase has largely been an odd argument of semantics. ...

However, the meaning of mental illness is when there is a mental health issue that is adversely affecting quality or life and has the potential to grow worse if untreated.

i know what mentally ill means. there are also diffrent levels of mental illness. it's a spectrum. and with medication and therapy, mental illness is treatable!
the OP has yet to be diagnosed with any mental illness. for all any of us know it's simply a coping method. an adult version of the invisible friend. so to jump that they may be incurably mentally ill without a diagnosis might keep them from going to get a diagnosis out of fear of confirmation. that shit is harmful.
it is more productive to say "perhaps it's nothing, but even if it is the best way to find out is to go speak to a professional" than something like "People who are mentally ill, even mildly, don't function well." which is a direct quote from this thread btw.

[Gravekeeper]

i know what mentally ill means. there are also diffrent levels of mental illness. it's a spectrum. and with medication and therapy, mental illness is treatable!

This is not a hallmark at all. Mental illness is a spectrum. Most people who suffer from these things are in a camp similar to Gilhemli. The crazy dude talking to a ferret on the bus is rare and a worst case scenario.

-.-

the OP has yet to be diagnosed with any mental illness. for all any of us know it's simply a coping method. an adult version of the invisible friend. so to jump that they may be incurably mentally ill without a diagnosis might keep them from going to get a diagnosis out of fear of confirmation.

The entire first thread was about similar concerns before we learned more. Also, Gilhemli described early onset schizophrenia ( ie before the age of 12 ). Which is rather rare.

it is more productive to say "perhaps it's nothing, but even if it is the best way to find out is to go speak to a professional"

Which has been the consensus of both threads.

than something like "People who are mentally ill, even mildly, don't function well." which is a direct quote from this thread btw.

Which just brings us back to bickering over terminology.

[Peppergirl]

can I just make a point? this is exactly what caused the last thread to get locked! can we please quit arguing the nuances of mental conditions V mental illnesses, and if schizophrenia is detectable on an MRI scan? Gilhemi asked for advice about hearing voices. Please can we get to the actual point- which what ( if anything) it is recommended that Gilhemi should do.

This.

Everyone, knock it off and stop with the insults and excessive snark.

Seriously, this is literally the third time a mod has had to intervene. Once in the original, then when it closed and now with this one. Enough.

[Shangri-laschild]

-Mental Illness, is a lot like Mental Injuries, except it is caused by genetics or toxins (like lead poisoning, smoking/drinking while pregnant, ect.). They sometimes need more help but, more often, you do not even know if a person has a mental illness because they are taking care of it (Same thing as getting a flu that might last all your life, annoying but manageable). It should be nothing to be ashamed of.

I am different then most people, I know. Personally, I like the word eccentric .

While I do support the idea of people looking into things and getting the medical information that they can (whether they end up medicating or not), this is very true. I used to be very frustrated with how my brain worked. It doesn't work like a lot of other people's brains and I grew up thinking there was something wrong or broken. I've learned a lot about how I work now though and what works for me and I love how I think now. I wouldn't trade it for anything. I wouldn't even trade away the difficult parts. They are a part of the amazing parts that I love and it all fits together. Different isn't bad. And even those who have trouble functioning shouldn't be made to feel ashamed of it, they should be helped.

[Seshat]

Please take what Gravekeeper is calling 'an odd argument over semantics' elsewhere. Into a separate thread, into PM, I don't personally care.

I've tried to read the posts that go into that argument, both in the original thread and this one, and decided that without a dance card and a spreadsheet </hyperbole and metaphor>, I wasn't going to be able to work it out.

Sorry folks; but if you're enjoying the argument, please feel free to continue it. Just please leave this thread for advice and discussion of the actual problem, not the meta-discussion about semantics and diagnostic techniques.

Also note: if that meta-discussion is done openly and conflicts with Pepp's instructions re snark and insult, it'll get mod intervention too. We KNOW you're all capable of intelligent and constructive discussion; please live up to our expectations, not down to our fears.


Thank you.


Seshat.
(in semi-mod mode. Peppergirl's done very nicely for the full-mod stuff, I'm just trying to be helpful.)

[siead_lietrathua]

Please take what Gravekeeper is calling 'an odd argument over semantics' elsewhere.

my apologies seshat, peppergirl and gilhelmi. i was not attempting to argue semantics at all. it was never my intention (heck i felt the need for a "dancecard" myself to figure out what was going on). others are free to pm me if they feel differently. and i won't address the concept again in this thread. i just wanted to apologies to the mods and the OP for the derailment.

to Gilhelmi:

i forgot part of the following in my initial post.
when you visit a therapist, they might determine that you are not mentally ill, but merely hear voices because it's a harmless coping method or etc.
it could be that the voices you are hearing are incarnations of yourself. if they seem to be particularly guiding or helpful, it may just be your minds way of manifesting your subconscious. everyone has a subconscious, some of us just have louder/ more coherent ones.
if you find that the voices are bothering you, and therapists have deemed nothing wrong, then perhaps counseling may help. they may be able to aid you in sorting out what's going on in your life that would cause your subconscious to start hammering at you.

if you desire a spiritual answer, perhaps looking into soul-dualism may help. you might find support groups for the concept online, though i am not sure where (the one i used to go to seems to have shut down or i would link it). if the other voices are of a different gender than yours, the two-spirit community may have helpful information as well. though two-spirits are considered akin to the genderqueer spectrum, soul-dualism can play into it at times.

however please seek the opinion of medical professionals before branching into alternative concepts.

[wolfie]

it could be that the voices you are hearing are incarnations of yourself. if they seem to be particularly guiding or helpful, it may just be your minds way of manifesting your subconscious. everyone has a subconscious, some of us just have louder/ more coherent ones.

Along the same lines, you might want to read "Bluff", a short story by Harry Turtledove (touches on the issue of "hearing voices" as a way of the mind trying to sort things out). It appears in his anthology of stories "Kaleidoscope", and was originally published in Analog magazine (no issue listed - cited in the introduction in the anthology). In the story is a mention of an academic article dealing with voices - haven't read that, but would be a further place to investigate.

[Gravekeeper]

As I touched on early, one scientific theory that's gaining momentum is that hearing voices, etc is a malfunction in the brain's ability to efference copy. That is, in basic terms, to separate the input of something we are doing from the input of something someone else is doing or an input coming from the environment.

When we do something the brain, in essence, sends a signal to itself to tell us that we are doing it and to expect the input. Hence the term copy. A second duplicate signal is sent to inform the brain to expect input from the action we just commanded. It allows us recognize and disregard sensory input from our own actions.

This is why you can't tickle yourself. Because the duplicate signal has forewarned your brain that the sensory input its about to receive is from you touching yourself. Instead of someone else touching you.

There's increasing evidence that a dysfunction of this mechanism is present in people on the schizophrenia spectrum. Without the ability to separate what we're doing from what others or the environment are doing could obviously cause great confusion.

In the case of hearing voices that would mean that the other voices are indeed the person's own thoughts and imagination but the brain can't recognize that due to this malfunction. So they become identified as separate external voices.

So quite literally you would be hearing your own subconscious, imagination, etc as separate voices or other incarnations of your self as siead put it. In the case of someone such as Gilhemli who seems to be on the stable end of the spectrum, this would functionally speaking be a different way of conscious thinking and decision making. It would be like that little voice in the back of your head having equal volume to what you think of as your own mental voice. When in fact, technically they are both yours.

In the case of someone with severe schizophrenia this is complete chaos as every thought and perception gets incorrectly classified. Hence the term "disorganized thinking". This is why someone with paranoid schizophrenia can claim to be Jesus or the Unabomber or something and think the CIA is after them. Its not that they imagined this scenario its that they took in this information but could not correctly categorize it. For example, if they read in the newspaper about the Unabomber the brain doesn't correctly classify the information as external or third person and mistakenly classifies it as first person.

So where we read about the Unabomber. They read about themselves and their brain tells them they did this and they are the Unabomber. Because the brain is not organizing information correctly.

Its not exactly what people think of when they think "insanity". Because a person with severe schizophrenia functionally has a perception and organization problem. The person inside all this noise is not insane anymore than a person with autism is insane.

Unfortunately, people don't think of mental illness this way though. For some reason its stigmatized as this wholly separate thing from other neurological symptoms and conditions. People seem to lump it in with other things that alter perception like drugs or alcohol and stemming from that lay the blame on the person themselves and write them off.

The guy talking to himself and or the ferret on the bus is not under the influence of anything. This is literally how he perceives the world and he should not be blamed for that perception. That ferret is as real to him as the person next to you on the bus is to you. That's the entire problem.