'Cheating' in shooters; that isn't cheating.

[Gravekeeper]

Ugh, I'm this type of player too. Though for me its partly sniping sure but also partly recon. Its not even so much the sniping as it is being able to see the whole battlefield and make decisions from there or call out things for my team. Especially in games like Battlefield where you have a report/scout/mark button to radio enemy sightings.

I can't think of a modern FPS where sniping is really a problem anymore though. Most modern games are balanced around it. You can't snipe without team support to watch your figurative back and modern games have tightened up aiming with mechanics like bullet drop and travel time as well as hit locations. Instead of the old school hit scan is the dot on you well you're dead now. Which could be a real problem before.

Most of the ill will towards sniper players is a hold over from the original Counter-Strike. Where the AWP would instant kill you even if it hit you in the toe and the game mechanics lend themselves to doing cheezy things like pulling all the hostages into a bathroom and camping there. Couple that with bullet penetration and the game's original dubious hit boxes and the HL2 engine's original net code. It would get real tiresome real fast. Then after you did get sniped you often sat for 3-5+ minutes in spectator for the rest of the round.

Prior to that it wasn't much of a thing. There was no sniping in Doom and Quake 1/2 rail gunning was more about twitch aiming then sniping. Because standing still in Quake 1/2 would get you killed pretty quick.

The other aspect of it though is that in any given game half the people that want to be a sniper can't play a sniper for the life of them and undermine the team by doing so. This is especially true in class based shooters ala Team Fortress 2. Where the team never, ever needs more than a pair of snipers or so ( same with spies ) but lots of kiddies like the play them.

Ironically, I always found that the people that get mad at me for sniping are often the same people exploiting whatever the unbalanced flavour of the month weapon is to cheese up kills. Like me sniping a couple members of their team is somehow a more horrific offensive then them nade spamming half the map. Then pulling out the classic argument that its totally legit because if the developers didn't want it used that way it wouldn't be in the game.

IE the war cry of talentless gamer hacks everywhere in every genre. >.>

[Racket_Man]

Back when I was playing Unreal Tourneyment Death-matches/co-ops/CTF/Jiailbreak/etc. years ago there were maps that had places/hidey-holes/slightly hidden areas that could and WERE used to camp and snipe.

Had LOTS of fun when those places were found and exploited.

[kamn]

Correction, if you had body armor, the AWP in the foot would leave you with 16 health and 80-something armor.

[SkullKing]

I think this article is appropriate

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

[Gravekeeper]

Correction, if you had body armor, the AWP in the foot would leave you with 16 health and 80-something armor.

Er, body armour only protects, well, the body. It doesn't cover the leg/foot hitboxes. Only the chest and arms ( and head if you have the helmet as well ) and originally not even the arms. The AWP also use to do much more damage prior to CS going commercial. It wasn't till after commercial releases that it got reduced and was no longer lethal on a leg hits.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

If you are scouting out a good position, find one, and stay there to make good snipes, that is not cheating.

If you are literally sitting on top of a spawn point and kill some one the instant they come back, while I would not call it cheating, I would certainly call you cheap.

It's similar to killing someone in WoW - particularly a much lower level player - and then sitting on their corpse so that when they finally run back and spawn... they instantly die again. Not cheating, certainly cheap.

I would consider the second one anti-fun, and ruining the enjoyment of other people to play the game because you are literally stopping them from being able to play the game at all.

Finding a good, hidden spot that can catch someone unawares? Not cheating, not cheap. Perhaps a little infuriating for the person who got sniped, but I would probably just make it my mission to find your hide-y hole and throw a grenade into it. You know, like a player is supposed to do. I certainly wouldn't swear at you, call you a cheater, or anything else like that.

[Gravekeeper]

The distinction I think everyone is feeling around for here is griefing and exploiting. Though they are not mutually exclusive.

If you are repeatedly doing something that unfairly rewards you but is not *technically* cheating then you are exploiting the game.

If you are repeatedly doing something just because it ruins someone else's enjoyment of the game, then you are griefing.

Cheating requires that you be actively doing something to break or alter the game to your advantage.

Exploiting can be addressed by the game developers but griefing is trickier and can't always be expressly stopped by the game rules. Since griefing can ride the line into harassment and thus requires moderation from admins or mods.

[s_stabeler]

if it is actual griefing- that is, deliberately setting out to ruin someone's game- i'd say it counts as harassment. the proble is figuring out if it actually is griefing, or if it's just that somebody can't be bothered to find an alternative route around a sniper. if it's a case that a sniper's managed to hole up in a position where they are blocking the usual route, provided they aren't actually spawncamping then it's just the sniper playing the game properly. (again, though, do factor in the skill level of the other players- if it's been 2-3 games in succession where you've curbstomped the other side, it might be a good idea to either pick a different spot- so that the other side have a better chance- or find a different server to play on- because to be frank? if a sniper was, game after game, killing me in short order, WOULD get irritated.)

[Gravekeeper]

Well, proper map design should handle that for the most part. TF2 is a shining example of class and map design there. You have weaknesses as a sniper you need to watch out for and sniping in general should be something that requires some level of passive team support. To ensure you do not get flanked or otherwise ambushed.

That was one of the more irksome problems with early Counter-Strike. There were a fair number of early maps that had points where a sniper ( or anyone really ) could just put a back to a corner and cover all possible approaches by themselves.

[wolfie]

If you are literally sitting on top of a spawn point and kill some one the instant they come back, while I would not call it cheating, I would certainly call you cheap.

In a game with a modern setting, that's something the game designers could add some code to look for and fix - let's say have some off-target artillery hit the "camper" 1/10 of a second before the respawn (so the shrapnel has already done its thing when the spawn hapens).

[Bloodsoul]

I kind of want to chime in, but the only online-capable games I play anymore are SoulCalibur V and Pokémon Y, and in the case of the former I really only have to worry about poor connections (especially if a player %@$#s it up on purpose).

[siead_lietrathua]

In a game with a modern setting, that's something the game designers could add some code to look for and fix - let's say have some off-target artillery hit the "camper" 1/10 of a second before the respawn (so the shrapnel has already done its thing when the spawn hapens).

would probably be easier to give everyone 5 seconds of immortality when they respawn to let them move into the map. if sitting on the spawnpoint is just rendered usless that'd be enough to stop most idiots. and if they manage to "cage" people into the spawn point until that time is up, it makes their greifing much more obvious.

i personally love sniping in games. the anticipation of waiting for that perfect moment to fire is much more exciting than spray-and-pray to me.

[s_stabeler]

Well, proper map design should handle that for the most part. TF2 is a shining example of class and map design there. You have weaknesses as a sniper you need to watch out for and sniping in general should be something that requires some level of passive team support. To ensure you do not get flanked or otherwise ambushed.

That was one of the more irksome problems with early Counter-Strike. There were a fair number of early maps that had points where a sniper ( or anyone really ) could just put a back to a corner and cover all possible approaches by themselves.

I actually agree- but what I was referring to is when it's clear that either one player, or an entire team, is good enough that it renders it less a game and more a slaughter. If that is happening, it's probably time to find new opponents- though it is not cheating.

[Seshat]

Finding a good, hidden spot that can catch someone unawares? Not cheating, not cheap. Perhaps a little infuriating for the person who got sniped, but I would probably just make it my mission to find your hide-y hole and throw a grenade into it. You know, like a player is supposed to do. I certainly wouldn't swear at you, call you a cheater, or anything else like that.

And that's exactly why I try to find two-to-four hidden spots; to counter you finding my hidey-hole and grenading me. And yes, I'm vulnerable as hell while travelling from spot to spot. Which is part of the point...

Each role has strengths, and each role has weaknesses. And different personalities and skillsets are suited to different roles; not to mention that different people get enjoyment from different things.


If you manage to catch me with a grenade, shoot me in the back (because I'm too focussed on my target area), or snag me while I'm in transit; that's absolutely fine. That's you catching a sniper in their weakness.
Similarly, if I manage to snipe you along the most popular route, then sprint my ass off to my hidey-hole that covers the second-most-popular-route, and catch you again (no, not at the spawn point. Some reasonable/fair distance along the route), that's me using a sniper's strengths.


I also agree with the point several people made: that if I'm playing against people who are significantly worse (or better!) than me, it's unfair/unfun for at least someone involved.



Anyway: thank you all. It seems the consensus is that a sniper being a sniper is considered to be absolutely fine and reasonable. It's only when a sniper is being a griefer that you have issues with it. Which makes sense!

[lordlundar]

This discussion actually reminds me of a match of Battlefront 2 I was in.

Map was Hoth and I was playing a rebel sniper. An imperial sniper and I wound up targeting each other for most of the match. I spot him taking out rebel soldiers so I would dust him, he'd go back and I'd dust him again. After a couple more times he would switch positions and do it to me. Then I would change spots and repeat the process.

By the end of the match the most kills and deaths for both of us were to each other.