*sigh* Here we go again...

[Andara Bledin]

Are you trying to imply that we are making up the protests that are going on? These people do exist.

No, he's just saying that the "some people" you referred to on page one can't change the fact that it was a justified defensive shooting by the cop, regardless of what they want to believe (as you mentioned) or the "most people" protege referred to who'd go on about other options.

[Gravekeeper]

Are you trying to imply that we are making up the protests that are going on? These people do exist.

No, I'm objecting to the nebulous construct of "some people" who exist only to present an absurd hyperbolic boogeyman position as if its a widely held position. How you even arrived at the conclusion that I'm trying to imply the protesters don't exist I have no idea. Given that in my previous post I not only acknowledged their existence but explained the situation on the ground.

[Greenday]

No, I'm objecting to the nebulous construct of "some people" who exist only to present an absurd hyperbolic boogeyman position as if its a widely held position.

I don't understand who you arrived at this conclusion at all. If you yourself admit there are people like this, then me saying some people believe it is not "absurd hyperbolic boogeyman" nor does it imply "widely held position". It's simply a word used to imply multiple people. I'm not sure why you are trying to make me out to be the bad guy if we both agree there are people doing it.

[Gravekeeper]

I don't understand who you arrived at this conclusion at all. If you yourself admit there are people like this, then me saying some people believe it is not "absurd hyperbolic boogeyman" nor does it imply "widely held position". It's simply a word used to imply multiple people. I'm not sure why you are trying to make me out to be the bad guy if we both agree there are people doing it.

Honestly that was more for protege. All I was originally doing was explaining that this was a far more nuanced situation and calling for some common sense. The protesters do not equate to these "people" in question even if there was an initial flashpoint at the scene. Because at that point neither we nor the protesters were aware of the facts of the situation. All they saw was another dead black guy on the pavement shot by a cop 2 miles from where Brown was shot.

So a statement like "Why is it that people keep forgetting about the gun, and make the immediate jump to racism?" is ridiculous because the people in question didn't even know about the gun in the first place. Police don't keep a customer service representative on hand at every crime scene to patiently explain what happened to random passersby. Hence the protests returned to being calm the next day after all the facts were out.

Then we have protege's "most people" that are supposedly going to demand why the officer didn't use his tazer. Which, like I said, is basically just assigning a hyperbolic position to some nebulous majority of people as if that proves anything.

[protege]

So a statement like "Why is it that people keep forgetting about the gun, and make the immediate jump to racism?" is ridiculous because the people in question didn't even know about the gun in the first place. Police don't keep a customer service representative on hand at every crime scene to patiently explain what happened to random passersby. Hence the protests returned to being calm the next day after all the facts were out.

Even after the video, the gun, and other things came out, they're still crying racism. With that evidence, there's always a "conspiracy." I've heard and read that the gun was planted by the cops. I've read claims that the perp (I'm not going to call him a "victim") didn't own a gun--by his own mother.

The point I was trying to make, is that protestors will believe whatever they want to. For example, closer to home, there's the case of Leon Ford. Ford was shot and paralyzed during a traffic stop. He was pulled over because he and his vehicle resembled descriptions of someone the cops were looking for. Rather than simply hand over his ID, let the cops run it, and be on his way...he chose to flee.

When he attempted to flee, he nearly ran over the officers. Thinking he was trying to kill them, they opened fire...paralyzing Ford in the process. Even though the trial is over, they're still crying "racism" and totally ignoring the fact that Ford tried to run officers down with his car! No, they're crying racism and want "justice" for Ford--totally ignoring what went on with the trial.

I don't know about you all, but the cries of "racism" are getting old. How many times on CS do we see people playing the race card whenever they don't get what they want? Run out of stock = racist. Have to wait in line = racist. Having to show ID at the liquor store = racist.

[Andara Bledin]

The point I was trying to make, is that protestors will believe whatever they want to. For example, closer to home, there's the case of Leon Ford. Ford was shot and paralyzed during a traffic stop. He was pulled over because he and his vehicle resembled descriptions of someone the cops were looking for. Rather than simply hand over his ID, let the cops run it, and be on his way...he chose to flee.

When he attempted to flee, he nearly ran over the officers. Thinking he was trying to kill them, they opened fire...paralyzing Ford in the process. Even though the trial is over, they're still crying "racism" and totally ignoring the fact that Ford tried to run officers down with his car! No, they're crying racism and want "justice" for Ford--totally ignoring what went on with the trial.

This is a complete fabrication of what happened.

Police pulled over Leon Ford in Highland Park on Nov. 11, 2012, and he provided his ID, but officers said they thought he was Lamont Ford, who at the time was wanted on criminal charges.

The officers testified at trial that they asked Leon Ford to get out of his car but he refused, so they started tugging on him, and Officer David Derbish got inside the car. The car slipped into gear and pulled away from the curb, and Officer Derbish fired five shots, striking Leon Ford and paralyzing him.

So, neither he, nor his vehicle, matched. He didn't refuse to show ID, which is where the problem started, because his name is what was similar, though not a match. His only refusal was to leave the vehicle, which is obviously stupid, but when you see and hear reports of people getting beaten for being black, you get wary. He never attempted to flee, rather the cops themselves are the ones who nearly ran down their own by knocking the car into gear.

I don't know that I'd cry racism, but that stop was conducted by a group of clowns with badges and there's a very real chance that had he been white, they wouldn't have attempted to drag/wrestle him from the car, and possibly they wouldn't have even stopped him in the first place.

[protege]

He never attempted to flee, rather the cops themselves are the ones who nearly ran down their own by knocking the car into gear.

Maybe. But, there is a video showing the car suddenly pulling away from the curb. Why is it that he not been trying to flee...that the car was still running?

there's a very real chance that had he been white, they wouldn't have attempted to drag/wrestle him from the car, and possibly they wouldn't have even stopped him in the first place.

He got pulled over for speeding and running a stop sign. If it happened in the section of Highland Park that I'm thinking of, there's a reason. Too many narrow streets, too many stop signs, and children around. I've driven through there many times, and yes, there are speed traps.

Also, at night, it's damn near impossible to see who, let alone their color, is behind the wheel of a car at night.

[Gravekeeper]

Even after the video, the gun, and other things came out, they're still crying racism. With that evidence, there's always a "conspiracy." I've heard and read that the gun was planted by the cops. I've read claims that the perp (I'm not going to call him a "victim") didn't own a gun--by his own mother.

Again, there are still two problems here.

A) You are taking the most extreme opinions and applying them to the majority.
B) You are grossly oversimplifying an incredibly complex and ongoing situation.

For A, there's always going to be people like that no matter what the issue is. Pick any issue whatsoever and we can go find plenty of extremist/out there positions about it across the internet. Also, no mother is going to walk out on national TV and go "Oh yeah, my son was a gun toting fucktard". Of course she's going to defend her child.

Plus, again, as I keep trying to explain you cannot judge the reactions of everyone involved here BEFORE they had the information about had happened. After hearing what happened and seeing the video his mother has accepted what happened and is trying to make sense of why he did what he did. As is the rest of his family.

I mean for fuck sakes man, you're using the words of a grieving mother that arrived on the scene of her son's death.

For B, its easy for you to sit back on your armchair and judge this situation objectively. Subjectively, these people have absolutely no reason to trust the police whatsoever in these communities. If you have decades worth of history of the police fucking you over, oppressing you, lying about it and getting away with it of course some people are going to have a problem accepting that hey, maybe THIS time the police are right.

I don't know about you all, but the cries of "racism" are getting old. How many times on CS do we see people playing the race card whenever they don't get what they want? Run out of stock = racist. Have to wait in line = racist. Having to show ID at the liquor store = racist.

You are seriously going to compare this to the race card in CS stories? Seriously? I mean....fucking seriously? People are dead. Maybe the cries of racism would stop if it wasn't such a prolific and tragic problem in the US.

[Gravekeeper]

Oh, and for the record, Leon Ford was found not guilty of the aggravated assault charges against the officers that supposedly lead to having to shoot him ( They claimed he punched the officer ). The jury was hung on everything else ( reckless endangerment and resisting arrest ) and the prosecutor has not filed for a retrial as of yet it looks.

Andara is also correct in that Ford's only refusal was a refusal to exit the vehicle. He provided ID and insurance. The officer claimed he saw an "unnatural bulge" and believed it was a weapon as justification for why they wanted him to exit the vehicle ( No weapon was found ). The officer in question also knew Ford. Which is why he was called to the scene to clear up confusion over his identity.

So they called in an officer that Ford had had previous run ins with. That officer claimed he thought Ford had a weapon and ordered him out of the vehicle. He refused. They tried to drag him out. The officer in question claimed Ford punched him. There was no weapon and Ford was cleared of aggravated assault charges for this alleged punch.

The officer who shot Ford has been reassigned to desk duty and the Department of Justice has launched an investigation into his conduct.

So yeah, seems totally legit on the officer's part.

[protege]

You are seriously going to compare this to the race card in CS stories? Seriously? I mean....fucking seriously? People are dead. Maybe the cries of racism would stop if it wasn't such a prolific and tragic problem in the US.

Still though, the constant cries of racism aren't doing the legit claims any favors. Reminds me of the boy who cried "wolf" all the time. Eventually, people quit listening to him, even when the cry was legit. I remember when Johnny Gammage died while in police custody in 1995. I remember reading other claims of police brutality locally not long after. I remember seeing those claims disappear when the review board started going through those cases.

The NYC death shouldn't have happened. That's truly a tragedy. The cops fucked up, and should be held accountable.

[CriminalMindsRocks]

I have only one thing to say

"I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

[s_stabeler]

a) that saying is relating to someone trying to kill you- NOT to shooting anybody who might disagree with you.
b) even that saying only justifies lethal force when your life is actually in danger- some of these cases involve someone being shot when they are completely unarmed, and obviously so.

[Gravekeeper]

Still though, the constant cries of racism aren't doing the legit claims any favors. Reminds me of the boy who cried "wolf" all the time. Eventually, people quit listening to him, even when the cry was legit. I remember when Johnny Gammage died while in police custody in 1995. I remember reading other claims of police brutality locally not long after. I remember seeing those claims disappear when the review board started going through those cases.

You remember something that happened locally from 1995 therefore the constant cries of racism are illegitimate? Well, that's a rock solid analysis! I'm convinced.

This isn't like the boy who cried wolf. The boy who cried wolf was referring to an unlikely incident that eventually ended up happening. This is a constant event that is happening all the time day in and day out. Which is being perpetuated by an institutionalized system.

[protege]

You remember something that happened locally from 1995 therefore the constant cries of racism are illegitimate? Well, that's a rock solid analysis! I'm convinced.

That's the one I remember, since it happened less than 5 miles from me. Where did I say that the case was illegitimate? What I said was, that about the same time...similar stories (which were proven to be bullshit) showed up. Since then, I take claims of racism with a grain or two of salt.