Chivalry = sexism?!

[s_stabeler]

while I do do things like open doors ( albeit I do it for just about anybody- if I don't, I'm either in a hurry, or you pissed me off fairly badly) for people, if someone told me not to, I'd stop ding it for them.

re: tests- if I was on a date, and thye tried to test me by offering to pay for themselves, then quite frankly, they just failed the test of being compatible. You try a test like offering to pay for yourself? Relationship is over. ( I will say, though, that it is the intention to test me that is the problem- quite frankly, if a date sincerely offered to pay, I wouldn't be bothered. Aside from checking they meant it. ( as in, asking "are you sure? Ok then))

[NecCat]

Regarding paying for the first date: I heard stories that if a woman insists on paying then that is code for "I don't think this is going well so this is the last time I'm seeing you,"

I would be okay with a woman offering to pay, but I would be a afraid that she's doing it as a "test" to see if the man is "cheap," like the woman who called in to the radio show.

For the first bit, yeah that's true for me at least. It's not code though, so much as when I'm quit of him, I just want not to be in debt or have any unfinished business with him, and no good reason to have to see him again.

As far as 'testing' dates to find out if they are willing to pay the right amount towards the date. That would be one test I would be happy to fail. As much as you seem to be concerned about offending women, you have to remember that you have the right to be offended by their behaviour too. If someone is doing something that offensive, do you really want to be with them? Wouldn't you rather know to move on and look for someone else?

I seriously doubt that a man ever did those things insinuating that a woman cannot do those things herself.

I knew a guy who did. Except it wasn't cannot; it was shouldn't..... I'm a girl and shouldn't do these things.

I work with one. He does some of the same things, take things from me, completes things I've started, and tells me to stop doing things because I can't do them, because I'm just a women. Despite being demonstrably wrong over and over he still firmly believes that because I am a woman that I simply am not intelligent, competent or useful in any way. He's not even trying to be insulting, he honestly believes that it is a fact that women are inferior to men in every way, everyone knows and accepts it, and we all just have to try to live with it.

We actually get along ok, I've come to realize that he is just not smart enough to realize that he is completely wrong, he never will be, and I can be the bigger person about the situation because he really is not intelligent enough to grasp equality. As an example we got into an argument one day about whether Alaska was in America or Canada. He wouldn't believe me that it was in America, because 'can't you read a map'. It wasn't resolved that day, so he went home and looked it up, he came in triumphant the next day: 'Alaska has to be at least halfway in Canada, because they have Native Americans there, so I was right!'

Um


Uh


How do you argue with logic like that? From the mind that brought you Canadian only Native Americans in Alaska; women are inferior to men, it's a fact. Working with him has helped me get more of an understanding on what the sexist people of the world are thinking. (The answer is often - deer jerky)

[Ghel]

I see most of this nonsense about chivalry has been thoroughly dismantled before I got to this thread. One thing I'd like to address is the idea of who pays the check on the first date.

No matter the genders of the people on the date, I think you should always offer to split the check. Having recently gotten back into dating, I'm hyper-aware of this. Although I'm nearly broke, I think it's only fair to split the check, especially if things don't seem to be going well. (My first date, last week, seemed so bored and unwilling to keep up the conversation that I knew there wasn't going to be a second date. The fact that he had placed the bill in the middle of the table when I returned from the bathroom only solidified my impression.) I don't want my date to feel slighted or feel he's "owed" something for buying me dinner.

Having said this, however, there's a practical reason that the man traditionally pays for meals. Men usually make significantly more income than women. With this gap closing (somewhat, for some types of jobs), it makes sense that the person who has more income should pay for meals.

[EricKei]

Just to be clear: I hold doors open for everyone, if someone is behind me, I'll hold it open for them. It's just the nice thing to do.

Same here. I hold the door for everyone, regardless of gender, age, etc. Never had a single complaint in 40 years...YMMV, of course.

I would be okay with a woman offering to pay, but I would be a afraid that she's doing it as a "test" to see if the man is "cheap," like the woman who called in to the radio show.

Honestly, if someone does something like that to 'test' you, fuck 'em.

Same. If someone tests me in that manner, I'd consider myself fortunate to never become truly involved with them.

[Kagato]

Agreeing with EricKei's comment about holding the door for people, I've yet to actually receive a complaint about it and have received more than a few thank-yous, particularly if the other person happened to have both arms occupied and would have otherwise been unable to operate the door.

On the subject of dates, if I was going out to a movie or something like that, then yes, I'd pay for both of us as a treat. That being said, I haven't really been to the movies in some time, what with Adult tickets costing $16.50 each these days in New Zealand... If we were going out to a restaurant, it would depend heavily on the price of the restaurant, largely because I am your stereotypical broke student and my funds are quite limited, though I've yet to actually have a 'bad' dinner date (the last one that did not concern my now-fiancee being over 2 years ago now...) When I was in the USA recently, my partner and I alternated paying for things so we each shared the financial burden (I'd pay for us to go bowling maybe, she would pay for food while we played, or possibly for where we had dinner after, as an example)

I believe in being courteous, but not being a doormat.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

In general, I think a lot of people look for a "best practice" when no such animal can exist in a world of liberated women and men. Once you accept the rights of another person, you realize you start getting contradicting input because you're listening. The best practice is more often is going to depend on the personal views of the person providing it.

I tend to hold to behaving the way I'm going to behave in public and I'll adjust as the general society dictates I should. But I have gotten side eye for holding a door and for not holding a door. I've gotten a bad look for giving up my seat and staying in my seat. I've never gotten a bad look for not catcalling. I've never gotten a bad look for asking a preference. I have watched a woman become irate when I was in a group of men and an older guy kept insisting the men could take care of moving a file cabinet.

The world is a confusing, scary place if you're terrified of making mistakes. If you're down with just being yourself and correcting as necessary, it's fairly pedestrian. And eventually you learn to differentiate irrationally angry people from everyone else. You still might have to deal with out of proportion anger, but that's a numbers game you only win by not interacting with people ever. Even then, they may still find you anyway.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Regarding opening doors; I like it when someone opens a door for me, rather than lets the door swing back in my face. It's called "good manners" and applies to everyone, male or female. I've also opened doors for people who are behind me, and held open doors for the disabled, elderly or people struggling with buggies and/or children, and never gotten a stink eye for doing so. However, it's true that some women get their panties in a wad about men showing good manners and holding doors open or letting them have their seat. They assume that it's done out of superiority, when the man in question is just being good mannered and would have done the same for anyone. A friend of mine got yelled at by a woman with a buggy after he opened the door for her. I just turned round and told her to shut up, cuz the only reason he opened the door for her and not me was cuz I was carrying the bags, and would she have yelled at me if I had done it?

Regarding who pays on the first date; well, on my very first date with my fiance, I offered at the end of the meal to go Dutch, and he turned me down and paid. I wasn't offended and I made the offer cuz the meal did cost a lot. After he told me that he appreciated my offer but wanted to pay, I instead said I'd pay the tip, which he was fine about. Now we're an established couple; sometimes, if we go out for dinner, he pays, sometimes, I pay, and sometimes, we go Dutch. Depends on who just got paid or is flush with money at the time. XD