#JeSuisCharlie

[siead_lietrathua]

wondering if anyone else is following this twitter tag.

short rundown: a group of comic artists are killed because they drew comics mocking religion, and the ones depicting Islam drew some.. negative attention. Comic artists are responding by sketching out more drawings in response, as well as it getting tagged around the internet. some news sites are posting the original comics.
and there's the opposing side, that's trying to spin this as not about freedom of speech, but instead it's about justifying islamophobia.

anyway, was curious if anyone else was following this one to see how it turns out. i know the last time something like this came close to happening we ended up with "draw mohammed day" so i'm not sure where it's gonna go this time.

[Tama]

I'm not seeing this end well...

[Gravekeeper]

I'm not sure what to think of this. I mean, aside from it being a tragedy committed by lunatics. Its basically taking one of most offensive things possible to a certain culture/religion and waving it in their face. Then when something horrible happens, doing it even more because free speech(?).

I can't help but think there's someone somewhere that thinks the anger over the depictions is absurd yet is secretly happy whenever an abortion doctor gets gunned down. Without seeing the irony.

[Hyena Dandy]

It's a complicated issue, honestly. And yet kind of simple at the same time. The simple part is the 'Yes, people have the right to draw anything they want including mocking stuff, and no, killing people isn't cool.' But with that out of the way...

When does "Doing this to show we refuse to be intimidated" become "Doing this as a general 'Ha, you got offeeeeended!'?" Remember, people like ISIS pull off a lot of their recruiting by saying "Westerners hate Muslims!" and when you start going "Ha, Stupid Muslims!" You're helping them.

I've seen a lot of misdirection and bad assumptions made about Muslims in the wake of this, too, even from people I'd thought were fairly reasonable. Like the assumption, for instance, that ALL Muslims hate images of Muhammed, which simply isn't the case.

[siead_lietrathua]

Then when something horrible happens, doing it even more because free speech(?).

to be fair, most of the comics that are gaining popularity are ones with broken pencils being resharpened, or a generic "guy in a skimask" shooting an artist/pencil/etc with "He Drew First" on it. there are a few people attacking musims, sure. there's always some idiots in a crowd. but most people are attacking the idea that terrorism should not silence free speech.

that Charlie magazine depicted images of several faiths, political leaders, etc, all with the same derision. it wasn't just a "let's mock muslims" book, it was a "let's mock the powerful" book. were they killed by extremist from any other sect, the backlash would have been the same.

[Hyena Dandy]

were they killed by extremist from any other sect, the backlash would have been the same.

Not totally sure about that. The increase in violence against Muslims since then has seemed to be a pretty Islam-Centric thing.

[Gravekeeper]

that Charlie magazine depicted images of several faiths, political leaders, etc, all with the same derision. it wasn't just a "let's mock muslims" book, it was a "let's mock the powerful" book. were they killed by extremist from any other sect, the backlash would have been the same.

Yes, but depicting the leaders of other faiths is not blasphamy to those faiths. ( Well, actually it is in some cases in Christianity and Judaism. ). Muslim views on religious imagery are quite varied even on depictions of prophets or religious figures. But they're pretty unanimous on not depicting the prophet Mohammad. Its similar to the whole "no graven images" thing in Christianity.

I mean there's free speech and then there's being a dick because free speech.

[Hyena Dandy]

Muslim views on religious imagery are quite varied even on depictions of prophets or religious figures. But they're pretty unanimous on not depicting the prophet Mohammad.

No they're not.

[siead_lietrathua]

I mean there's free speech and then there's being a dick because free speech.

well sure, they're being dicks. but they have the right to. just like the WBC and their "god hates fags!" signs. or people with the "get out of america if you don't speak english" type of bumperstickers. or those "celebrity roasts".
free speech cannot be limited by "someone got offended", because then we would all be unable to say anything. and comedy, even tasteless, does NOT deserve a death sentence.


"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

[Kheldarson]

I mean there's free speech and then there's being a dick because free speech.

This is true, but being a dick shouldn't get you killed. Nor should being an equal opportunity satirist get you killed.

[fireheart17]

I'm not sure what to think of this. I mean, aside from it being a tragedy committed by lunatics. Its basically taking one of most offensive things possible to a certain culture/religion and waving it in their face. Then when something horrible happens, doing it even more because free speech(?).

I wonder how those people would feel if someone drew a picture of a Catholic priest/father f*cking an altar boy and said altar boy going "Ah yes, here in the Bible it states <whatever passage there may be about women remaining virgins> but nothing about boys..."

Or alternately a tour guide leading people through a Catholic cathedral and describing it as a tribute to the female body (a la The Da Vinci Code. For the unfamiliar, there's a passage in there about how one of the characters believes that a cathedral's long nave represents a tribute to the woman's birth canal/womb, while the door represents the labia and the keystone/cinquefoil over the door represents a clitoris!)

The reason why I'm targeting Christianity is that in our society, Christianity seems to have this pedestal of "Do what I say, not as I do" combined with "I'm king of the castle and you're the dirty rascal" over it. If I wanted to be equally individual, I would be suggesting a cartoon of Ganesh getting BBQ'd or of a Sikh man/ladies hair being cut (Sikhs NEVER cut their hair) would also suffice.

When does "Doing this to show we refuse to be intimidated" become "Doing this as a general 'Ha, you got offeeeeended!'?" Remember, people like ISIS pull off a lot of their recruiting by saying "Westerners hate Muslims!" and when you start going "Ha, Stupid Muslims!" You're helping them.

People seem to forget that and believe that "if we crack down on them and make it so that if they leave the country they can't return (or alternately "We don't let them in at all"), then maybe they won't want to join."

I've seen a lot of misdirection and bad assumptions made about Muslims in the wake of this, too, even from people I'd thought were fairly reasonable. Like the assumption, for instance, that ALL Muslims hate images of Muhammed, which simply isn't the case.

Off the top of my head, I believe the reason is something to do with the fact that Muhammad is meant to represent an ideal of perfection and having images of him seems to contradict that idea. It's not so much hatred, I'm thinking of this like the idiots who claim that same-sex marriage will suddenly make life harder for Christians.
That's what I read up years ago anyway. (It's also the reason why a number of older Islamic mosques are decorated beautifully with patterns)

[BlaqueKatt]

to be fair, most of the comics that are gaining popularity are ones with broken pencils being resharpened, or a generic "guy in a skimask" shooting an artist/pencil/etc with "He Drew First" on it.

I think this is the most poignant

[s_stabeler]

IIRC, the images of Mohammed is actually a rule that's there to stop people from worshipping Mohammed, rather than God. Therefore, if you start putting him on a pedestal, saying you can't criticize him at all, you're actually going AGAINST the intent of the Koran.

[HYHYBT]

Likewise, the view certain Christians (especially the KJV-only kind) hold of the Bible as miraculously perfect comes awfully close to idolatry, but they don't see it like that.

[anakhouri]

Extremism for any subject invites mockery, whether it be extreme religious, political, or social views (look how we make fun of PETA, for instance). This isn't politically correct, but maybe if Muslim extremists stopped killing people and acting like lunatics- you know, stopped being extreme-, people would be less inclined to mock them.