Feminism

[the_std]

Do you think that most feminists are ugly, man-hating bull dykes who are striving for matriarchy rather than equality? Or is feminism simply the victim of stereotyping? Is feminism effective and worthwhile, or are is it a cry for attention? Is feminism good or bad?

Discuss!

[daleduke17]

Do you think that most feminists are ugly, man-hating bull dykes who are striving for matriarchy rather than equality? Or is feminism simply the victim of stereotyping? Is feminism effective and worthwhile, or are is it a cry for attention? Is feminism good or bad?

Discuss!

It's just like minorities claiming discrimination. Feminism used to be a "needed" thing, and "NOW" is just like the NAACP, a group of people who have outgrown what they were intended to do. Both groups are just blowhards destined on making it impossible for a heterosexual Caucasian male to get anywhere in the world.

[Greenday]

It WAS needed, but now with equal rights legally, there's really not much politically that feminists can do. It's society that needs to change, not the government.

[fireheart17]

From a very basic POV, I agree with Greenday, but there's some other points to think about. In my Modern Political Thought class, we covered three types of feminists.

Liberal Feminists-basically want equal rights for all sexes, women included. No man-hating involved, but they are against things like pet names and so forth.
Marxist Feminists-something to do with wanting to be like the bourgeoise and not like the proles or something like that...
Radical Feminists-the 'stereotypical' feminist.

All in all, I'd probably suggest that yes, society does need to change, but it'll be hard when women become part of tokenism.

[AdminAssistant]

Seeing as how women on average still make less than men, feminists are still needed. And we do need to pass the ERA, with an expansion to include the LGBT community. And a lot of feminist theory I've read (Judith Butler, Helene Cixous, Laura Mulvey) is all still very relevant. The majority of film directors are male - therefore the effect of the "male gaze" of the camera should be studied. Portrayal of female bodies on stage vs. male bodies. Objectification. Treatment of women in different areas of the US and the world. There are still places in the world where women are property. There are places in the US where young women are forced into marriages with much older men. Places in the US where abortion is completely illegal, where women don't have reliable access to birth control.

Yes, I am a feminist. I'm an advocate for equality across the board, but I happen to be a woman, so you'll excuse me for being mostly concerned about female issues.

I know very few "heterosexual Caucasian males" who have a hard time "getting anywhere in the world" because of the fact that they are "heterosexual Caucasian males". I do however, know of women who have a hard time getting jobs because employers look at them as baby machines. I know of women who hit the glass ceiling in mid-level positions because they aren't viewed as 'tough enough' to be higher up. And if they act 'tough enough' they're accused of being a bitch.

[Evandril]

I do however, know of women who have a hard time getting jobs because employers look at them as baby machines.

One of the best solutions to this would be to back *men* getting equal time off, due to family pregnancies...With the same risks involved (Oh, sure, you're job will be here waiting, don't worry about it...Might want to take your stuff with you, we'll have your office cleaned while you're out)

The other points you bring up? I wish I could think of a way to deal with them... The two most capable people I know are both female, and the one who gets the most respect for what she does still isn't treated as well as a man would be.

That being said...I tend to despise 'feminazis', because they do more harm to the cause than good (Same labling idea as xtian for someone who calls themselves Christian...but isn't)

[Seshat]

I'm a feminist.

My strand of feminism is a desire for everyone to have reasonable access to equal rights: whether they wish to be a Wall St financier or a Kenyan archeologist.

Now, I will admit that a person raised by the Masai are unlikely to end up as a Wall St financier, and a person raised in Manhattan is unlikely to become a wildlife ranger in Kenya. But I feel that if they want to strongly enough, the opportunity should be there.

Gender, race, sexuality, and other irrelevancies should not hinder them in their goals. Disability, on the other hand, might. Someone with my disabilities is simply unfit to do physical work.

The structure of a person's body can affect their suitability for work - a slight person, male or female, simply can't do much search-and-rescue work without developing and maintaining the muscle strength the job calls for. And some people's bodies simply won't do that, so those people are unsuited for such jobs.


In my own life, I have seen that inequality of opportunity is still very much present. Bias has robbed the world of a wonderful early childhood teacher - my brother would have been great. But the political and social climate is just too untrusting of men who want to be around young children.

In computing, I have seen subtle, unconscious discriminations. 95% of computing professionals I have encountered are just fine working with women, but there's still a burden on the women to prove themselves sufficiently geeky to fit in. Once they have, they're accepted.

But there are small things. Details most men are unaware of. Late-night meetings can be more difficult for women than for men - if only because of the issue of getting home safely. (All my life, the mantra has been 'women should not use public transport alone at night'.)

Many jobs are advertised in places like slashdot, where the general feel is extremely unwelcoming to women. In fact, in many public geeky forums, a female username is an open invitation to abuse. As I said, 95% of my peers are fine - but the remaining 5% make a stink totally out of proportion to their numbers.

Women in the field have to make a decision. Do they stay and accept that yes, they will get abusive behaviour targetted to them? Or do they get the hell out? I have known many women who have left simply because they were sick and tired of that 5%.

If they stay, do they choose to be public figures, role models for the next generation of girls who enjoy using computers? If so, that 5% will REALLY target them - it's happened to everyone I know who's chosen to do things like speak at conferences, write blogs, write books...

...and if they don't do those things, they'll never make it past the glass ceiling.


Men in this field don't face those choices.

In any field where this sort of thing happens, there's no equality yet. And I don't care which gender, race, sexuality, or whatever is the targetted one: if it happens, the field isn't equal.

[guywithashovel]

Back when I was in college, there was a Women's History class offered. Actually, there were two classes: Women's History I and Women's History II. WH I dealt with the time period before 1890, and WH II dealt with the time period after that up to the present. At the end of every semester, when students were busy registering for the next semester's classes, the profesor who taught that class always had male students approaching her and asking, "I want to take the class, but are there any other guys signed up?" They didn't want to be the only male in the class. And really, I don't blame them. It would be kind of awkward to be the only man in a class like that. She (the prof) would always stress, "Yes. There are always plenty of men in the class, and it is NOT course in male bashing." I did take the WH II class during my last semester, and it was a great class. Not one word of male bashing was uttered, presumably much to the delight and relief of my testicle-touting classmates.

I actually thought it was funny that so many of my fellow men were concerned that the class was going to be Male Bashing 101 or some variant of that. For one thing, what would be the point in offering such a class? It would be a total waste of time, money, and resources. Trying to teach a woman how to male bash would be like teaching a dog how to shit on the carpet. You would be teaching her how to do something that she is already decently skilled at, and is probably already doing quite often.

[AdminAssistant]

Trying to teach a woman how to male bash would be like teaching a dog how to shit on the carpet. You would be teaching her how to do something that she is already decently skilled at, and is probably already doing quite often.

I don't think that's quite fair. Not all women sit around and 'bash' men.

[Greenday]

I don't think that's quite fair. Not all women sit around and 'bash' men.

It's kinda a natural skill. Whether or not you use it is the difference.

It's kinda like guys have the natural skills of farting and scratching/adjusting their crotches at really appropriate times and places. Not all guys do it, but it comes naturally to us.

[Amethyst Hunter]

Seeing as how women on average still make less than men, feminists are still needed. And we do need to pass the ERA, with an expansion to include the LGBT community. And a lot of feminist theory I've read (Judith Butler, Helene Cixous, Laura Mulvey) is all still very relevant. The majority of film directors are male - therefore the effect of the "male gaze" of the camera should be studied. Portrayal of female bodies on stage vs. male bodies. Objectification. Treatment of women in different areas of the US and the world. There are still places in the world where women are property. There are places in the US where young women are forced into marriages with much older men. Places in the US where abortion is completely illegal, where women don't have reliable access to birth control.

Yes, I am a feminist. I'm an advocate for equality across the board, but I happen to be a woman, so you'll excuse me for being mostly concerned about female issues.

I know very few "heterosexual Caucasian males" who have a hard time "getting anywhere in the world" because of the fact that they are "heterosexual Caucasian males". I do however, know of women who have a hard time getting jobs because employers look at them as baby machines. I know of women who hit the glass ceiling in mid-level positions because they aren't viewed as 'tough enough' to be higher up. And if they act 'tough enough' they're accused of being a bitch.

THIS times a million. *applauds*

I'm a feminist. That does not mean I want to see all men castrated (Just the bad ones, heh). It means I want women to be taken seriously the same as men are, to get that automatic respect and priviledge and power that white heterosexual males get from birth onwards. (Anyone who says white heterosexual males are "oppressed" or "discriminated" against in this country is either lying through their teeth or is incredibly blind.) Men are allowed to be complex and human; the same needs to be extended to women who are too often stuck in one of two pegholes: virgin or whore (both of which are reviled, but for different reasons).

[Evandril]

I actually thought it was funny that so many of my fellow men were concerned that the class was going to be Male Bashing 101 or some variant of that. For one thing, what would be the point in offering such a class? It would be a total waste of time, money, and resources. Trying to teach a woman how to male bash would be like teaching a dog how to shit on the carpet. You would be teaching her how to do something that she is already decently skilled at, and is probably already doing quite often.

Was a valid thing to be worried about...since I *have* seen classes like that, and any poor male caught in the class tends to fail almost automatically. Of course, I was last in college in the late 80's, so hopefully that's changed

[bigred]

I'm a feminist, and was raised by feminists. What I mean by that is my parents both thought women and men should be given equal opportunities and not be restricted by their gender. I'm old enough to remember the job ads in the paper being divided into 'women and girls' and 'men and boys'. I still remember the equal rights legislation being brought in, and where I was when I heard about it (in the car with my mother, it came over the radio on the news). During my lifetime women had to leave the public service when they married.

At one stage here in Australia recently, people in Sydney had a total stream of women in charge - the Queen (still our head of state for some reason), the Govenor-General, the acting Prime Minister, the acting Premier of NSW, and the Lord Mayor of Sydney. Still too many actings, but it's getting better.

Physically I'm not as strong as a 20 year old man. But how many 40 year old men are?

[lordlundar]

In computing, I have seen subtle, unconscious discriminations. 95% of computing professionals I have encountered are just fine working with women, but there's still a burden on the women to prove themselves sufficiently geeky to fit in. Once they have, they're accepted.

Yeah, but that burden is really on anyone trying to get into the field, regardless of gender. We apply our elitist pretty equally.

I think it's more of an active effort due to tradition. Men have been associated with the technical side of things while women have been associated with the more civic side of things. As such, at a young age boys are taught to focus on technical stuff while girls are taught to focus on the civic stuff. (toys advertised for boys are cars, toy guns, etc. while toys for girls are dolls, kitchen sets, etc) Then when said people get to the real world, It's a lot less focused effort for boys to get accepted into the technical fields than girls because they grew up in that technical environment.

[Evandril]

Heh, would the lable 'equalist' be a bad one? I'm fully in favor of everyone being given an equal opportunity for anything, though I am against making exceptions for one or the other. There *will* be some jobs that are going to have bias, but if it's required for the job, I've got no problem with it (Hooters waitresses, and the like)