Rioters Ruin Another Protest

[Greenday]

Are you missing the part where the police have been caught doing this multiple times in the past?

The cops in this incident have never done this before the knowledge of anyone.

The records stop in '08 then pick up again four years later. Odds are, he was in jail at the time.

In February 2009, he was sentence to four years in jail. He was paroled in 2011 and violated his parole in 2012 but they didn't send him back to jail.

[the_std]

The cops in this incident have never done this before the knowledge of anyone.

The well-known common culture among cops means that, even if these particular cops have never been caught doing this before, they should receive no benefit of the doubt. There is clearly a problem with the training or culture with the BPD, seeing how (and I find it fucking ridiculous that I have to say this again) this behaviour has killed two people in police custody in the past.

[Greenday]

The well-known common culture among cops means that, even if these particular cops have never been caught doing this before, they should receive no benefit of the doubt. There is clearly a problem with the training or culture with the BPD, seeing how (and I find it fucking ridiculous that I have to say this again) this behaviour has killed two people in police custody in the past.

Since the EXTREME majority of cops do nothing of this sort, this makes absolutely no sense.

[Tama]

The BPD seems to be well known for that kind of behavior though. There may be good cops there but there's a lot of bad ones too.

[s_stabeler]

To be honest, it's actually irrelevant if he self-harmed or not. Why? because there are THREE wasy the police in question were negiligent.
1. They went on a far longer route to get tot he station than was nessecary- at a minimum, thye were deliberately prolonging how long the guy spent in transit (and to be honest, if Baltimore PD really is corrupt, if I had been in the cop car for 20 minutes on what should be a 10-minute journey, I would be wondering about where I was actually being taken)
2. the impact with the wall- how, exactly, if he was buckled in- in both handcuffs and leg irons- was he able to release the buckle n order to slam his head into the opposite wall? Therefore, the police are still negligent for not buckling him in, regardless of the immediate reason for him dying.
3. They checked on him, with him on the floor, in clear need of medical help, and didn't bother calling for help. ( or was he buckled back in)

In short, REGARDLESS of if it was self-harm or not, the cops were still at least grossly negligent.

[Greenday]

In short, REGARDLESS of if it was self-harm or not, the cops were still at least grossly negligent.

I never denied that part. They are responsible for whoever is in their care.

[Gravekeeper]

The cops in this incident have never done this before the knowledge of anyone.

and do you know why that is? Its because the BPD is not required to track or report to the city when an officer has been the subject of multiple brutality lawsuits. In fact they actively block attempts by the city to reform that little loophole.

was more likely to self harm to get out of going back to prison than a conspiracy by six police officers with not one single complaint on their records to kill a prisoner.

Its not a conspiracy, for crying out loud. Would you please just read something, anything that anyone is trying to tell you? They didn't plot to kill him. They meant to harm to him and showed a callous disregard for his safety and well being, in violation of their own department policies, which led to his death.

They had 5 separate opportunities to call for medical assistance. Instead they banged him around in the van for an hour before heading back to the station which was only 5 minutes away, where they finally had to admit to themselves maybe they should call a medic.

They then brushed it under the rug on their official reports.

The BPD has been doing this shit for decades. The city pays out millions every year to settle brutality lawsuits against the BPD. We are not dealing with the myth of a Few Bad Apples. Its a systematic and ingrained department wide culture. There are no good apples. The Bad Apples make sure of that.

You are stubbornly defending terrible people that killed a man in what seems like a deliberately ignorant manner.

But it seems a lot more likely to me that a felon self-harmed to get out of going back to prison and politicians pressured a prosecutor who all their jobs rely on being elected and being popular hanging these cops out to dry so their city doesn't get burnt to the ground and they don't lose their cushy jobs.

Bullshit. It was a separate parallel investigation by the sheriff's deputies independent of the BPD that lead to the DA bringing charges.

I mean come the fuck on, dude. If there was any sort of actual political or social will of that nature you wouldn't have Baltimore, Ferguson, etc to begin with. Their city isn't going to get burned to the ground. You think the politicians involved give a rat's ass that a CVS in a poor neighbourhood was burnt down?

You think after decades of systematic racism, poverty and police brutality a CVS and some bad optics on Twitter are going to be the turning point in these people's minds? While most the national US media literally does everything in its power, again, to maintain the status quo?

The people that keep these asshats in power are the ones sitting at a horse race in Maryland complaining to each other that Gray's spine was already severed before he was arrested. You think they're going to do a 180 and become champions of social justice because the Poors(tm) burned down their own CVS?

I mean, just, seriously. Come the fuck on, dude. ><

[Hyena Dandy]

was more likely to self harm to get out of going back to prison than a conspiracy by six police officers with not one single complaint on their records to kill a prisoner.

And that somehow also means that you find it more likely that, in self-harming, he managed an injury that is quite honestly EXTREMELY difficult, or that some other people hurt him?

And it's not a conspiracy to murder a prisoner. It's a conspiracy to HARM a prisoner. I don't think they expected him to die. They just thought it'd be funny to beat someone up because, well, because they're not very nice people. THe point is that theY SHOULD have known he would get injured.

Again, a person with their hands and feet bound, has somehow managed a severed spine? I mean, that's not an easy thing to get. You don't get it from banging your back against the wall. I don't know too much about a severed spine injury, I only know of a couple cases, but in both those cases, someone got injured with a pretty heavy amount of force. The only way I can imagine someone self inflicting a severed spine from force like that would be if they were to jump, flip, and land on their neck. It's not impossible, but he didn't have room for that kind of acrobatics.

Now, I disagree with Andara that you can't get that type of injury without blood - I've seen people who died of similar injuries before, and neither of them was bleeding, at least if the 'Severed spine' is what killed him. But you can't get that without really huge amounts of force. Really the best way to get an injury like that is to either rely on gravity or, if you don't have room to call on gravity, you'd need to get a good amount of force another way. In this case, I think, the only way I can imagine getting such an injury here - And of course I'm not a forensic pathologist - Is if he was either somehow propelled into the wall, or if the force of the car starting and stopping did it. So, even if he was trying to injure himself, he couldn't have injured himself without help, because I really doubt someone could launch themselves enough to make that happen.

[Aragarthiel]

Would it be possible that both circumstances are true? He may have tried to injure himself, then the officers took him on a rough ride, and the two put together may have severed his spine. From what I'm gathering here, he could have been injured from the beginning of the ride. If the cops saw him trying to hurt himself, it sounds likely that they could have thought, "Hey, let's help this guy out and take him on a ride."

[Gravekeeper]

In this case, I think, the only way I can imagine getting such an injury here - And of course I'm not a forensic pathologist - Is if he was either somehow propelled into the wall, or if the force of the car starting and stopping did it.

That's exactly what it was. The medical report matched the imprint of the head wound to the bolts on the interior van wall. It takes a significant amount of force not just to sever a spinal cord but literally leave a forensically identifiable imprint in someone's skull.

He also had no other injuries. So if he was self harming he did either a really good or really bad job of it depending on your perspective.

Would it be possible that both circumstances are true? He may have tried to injure himself, then the officers took him on a rough ride, and the two put together may have severed his spine. From what I'm gathering here, he could have been injured from the beginning of the ride. If the cops saw him trying to hurt himself, it sounds likely that they could have thought, "Hey, let's help this guy out and take him on a ride."

No, the police report mentions they put him in leg irons because he was being quote unquote "irate" according to the officers involved. Gray requires an inhaler and was in distress when arrested. He requested his inhaler during his arrest and was ignored ( which is also against department policy ) so that's likely what he was being "irate" about when they decided to stop and shackle him then throw him back in the van face down on the floor.

I imagine he was also a tad upset at the fact they arrested him on a false charge ( illegal possession of a switch blade when the knife he had was legal ). If Gray had actually made any attempt at self harm the officers involved would definitely have noted that in their reports to try and cover their asses.

The "self harm" narrative came a while later from a statement they twisted out of a prisoner who as I stated before was not in the van with Freddie Gray when he suffered the injury. This prisoner was only in the back of the van for the last 5 minutes of the ride right before they arrived at the station. He also had no view of Gray in the van to begin with.

Also, the "self harm" narrative was released at the same time as the narrative that it was the arresting officers that injured Gray not the transporting officers ( story that came from one of the transporting officer's relatives ). But the right wing noise sphere has abandoned that one.

But lets go over this, yet again, for Greenday's sake:

At 8:46am, the officers shackled Gray and left him on the floor of the van. Gray suffered the critical neck injury almost immediately afterwards somewhere between 8:54am and 8:59am.

The officers checked on Gray at 8:59am and he told them he could not breath and pleaded for medical help. They responded by picking him up off the floor and putting him on the bench ( thus moving someone with a spine injury ). But did not unshackle him or belt him in to secure him. They did not call for any medical assistance. Gray requested help at least twice while still conscious.

At the 4th stop, three separate officers checked on Gray and found him unresponsive on the floor of the van. Officer White was told that Gray had requested medical help a couple of times. Officer White tried to speak to Gray, but he did not respond and remained motionless on the floor of the van. Despite this, no assistance was rendered, no medical assistance was called for, and he was left on the floor still/again instead of being secured.

Instead of proceeding to the precinct, they decide to respond to another call. This is the prisoner in question that they claim said Gray was trying to harm himself. Gray was already injured and unconscious/not breathing by the time this prisoner is loaded onto the van.

The van is divided into 3 holding compartments. Gray is in the rear right compartment. This prisoner is loaded into the rear left compartment. He never sees Gray and has no view of Gray from within the van.

At 9:24am they arrive at the station and when they go to unload Gray, find him not breathing on the floor of the van. A medical is finally called.

So what Greenday is in essence arguing, is that within the span of 5 minutes, Gray managed to get to his feet ( despite being bound hand and foot ) in a moving van and throw himself at the wall with enough force to sever his own spine and leave the imprint of the van's wall in his skull.

Also note that this van does have cameras in the back but they were "malfunctioning" and did not record how Gray was treated or injured.

Even if all of that were somehow amazingly true it is a completely moot point due to the officer's intent to harm, negligence and disregard for well being. So the only thing the "self harm" narrative is arguing is that in essence that Gray somehow deserved this and thus the officers are somehow less guilty because Gray was not a perfect model citizen. Which is the same argument brought up against literally every unarmed black man killed by police.

When the blunt facts of the matter are that the police killed a man they falsely arrested in the first place. While violating several of their own policies that were put into place specifically to STOP them from doing so.

[protege]

No, he didn't. That was a bullshit story from the right wing fuck-o-sphere. One of a few that emerged. Just like happens with every unarmed black man dies around cops story. =/

I never said I *believed* that story. It's timing was just a bit too "convenient" for me.

[Hyena Dandy]

That's exactly what it was. The medical report matched the imprint of the head wound to the bolts on the interior van wall. It takes a significant amount of force not just to sever a spinal cord but literally leave a forensically identifiable imprint in someone's skull.

What I was saying with that was that, basically, even if he was trying to self harm - And I am ruling out on principle the idea that he was equipped with rocket boots, though I will concede for Greenday's sake I can't prove he DIDN'T have them - That he couldn't have self-harmed if he'd been put in a proper position in the first place.

Basically he could only have ended up killing himself... If the police in question were doing what they're not supposed to do anyway.

[s_stabeler]

which was alos my point abotu why it was irrelevant if he self-harmed or not- if the police had followed procedure, then Gray wouldn't have been able to self-harm, which means that the police are legally responsible- both criminally and civilly- anyway

[the_std]

Since the EXTREME majority of cops do nothing of this sort, this makes absolutely no sense.

Oh look, Mr. I've Done Nothing Suspicious, the cop charged with second degree murder, has a violent background.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...ce?CMP=ema_565

Any more arguments you want to make?

[Greenday]

Oh look, Mr. I've Done Nothing Suspicious, the cop charged with second degree murder, has a violent background.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...ce?CMP=ema_565

Any more arguments you want to make?

Manslaughter, not second degree murder.

And unless Gray was boning his ex-girlfriend, it's not relevant to this case (And would probably be thrown out in court for not being relevant). The incident you reference has NOTHING to do with how he handles prisoners or performs his job.