How the system fails pedophiles

[Aragarthiel]

I agree with that. However, by the current medical definition, just about everyone has a mental illness of some sort. There simply has to be a better, more specific way to put it.

[Hyena Dandy]

My problem isn't with what Hyena pointed out, it's with the medical definition of "mental illness" itself. It allows for cultural traditions to be considered mental illnesses, when they are simply traditions, often spurred by religious beliefs (and nobody wants their religion considered a mental illness).

NO IT DOESN'T! That's WHY DEVIANCE IS LABELED. Because if something is deviant, it means it's unknown TO THE CULTURE YOU ARE IN. It can't be deviant, if everyone does it. If everyone's stretching their necks, or footbinding, or only washing once a month and rubbing mucus on people, then that's not a deviant act. It would be deviant, if someone NOT from that culture did it. The whole point of labeling it for deviance, as one of the pieces, is because otherwise, it wouldn't be a mental illness.

What you're concerned about is the reason that deviance is in the list. Becuase if we don't specify "And not just something everyone does" then we're going to label cultural standards as mental illnesses.

[TheHuckster]

I can't agree with that definition, and therefore can't immediately agree with pedophilia being classified as a mental illness on those grounds alone.

First of all, deviant is only one of a few things on the list. One can be deviant and still not be mentally ill because it doesn't fit the other criteria. If something psychologically is preventing you from participating in society or having a normal life, by the definition of "normal" in your neck of the woods, then you have a mental illness.

If you're foot binding, neck stretching, or whatever else because your culture promotes it as a social norm, then that doesn't count. On the other hand, if you are foot binding for no other reason than some kind of strange masochistic compulsion then that's where there's a great possibility there's a psychological problem.

I agree with that. However, by the current medical definition, just about everyone has a mental illness of some sort.

Mental illnesses are often a spectral condition. Some I believe which shouldn't even bother to be treated if it's not greatly hindering one's daily life. I know I tend to be distracted, or forgetful. If I were to see someone about it, they'd likely diagnose me with ADD and prescribe me some meds with undesired side-effects. However, I choose not to do that because it's something I can work around. Sure, every so often I might misplace my keys or wallet, or I might forget a doctor's appointment here and there, but it doesn't affect me to the point where I can't function. I've learned to live with it, as has many people.

On the other hand, I know of people who have ADD so severely they seriously cannot function without their medication. They can't work effectively because they become distracted so easily and can't get everyday tasks done.

So, yes, I would tend to agree that just about everyone has a mental illness of some sort. It's just a question of how severe is it and how well can you overcome the detriments without medication.

[Aragarthiel]

NO IT DOESN'T! That's WHY DEVIANCE IS LABELED. Because if something is deviant, it means it's unknown TO THE CULTURE YOU ARE IN.

Whoa, there, didn't mean to offend, I was just trying to point out that there are flaws in the medical definition of mental illness that make innocent things seem like something that can be cured.

[Panacea]

Part of the issue is that no research (that I know of) has been done to show whether pedophilia is a sexuality or a mental illness. If it's a sexuality, that shows that the person has more self-control and should be able to keep their kids in most cases. However, mental illness can inhibit self-control, though it also means that pedophilia can be treated and possibly cured.

Actually, that's not true at all. There has been a great deal of research in this area, and pedophilla has been recognized as a mental disorder for over 100 years. Currently it is listed in the DSM-5 (Diagnosistic Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association) as pedophillc disorder.

It has very specific criteria. Among them, the person must be sexually aroused by children, must be at least 16 years old and at least five years older than the child. The person does not have to act on the attraction to have the disorder. The person will prefer the sexual attraction to that of adults. The desire must last six months or longer, and the person must either act on the urge or suffer distress from the urge.

Pedophillia one of the paraphillias: a sexual perversion or deviantcy that involves objects, situations or persons outside the norm. Homosexuality used to be considered a paraphillia but is now considered within the spectrum of human norm.

Pedophillia is notoriously difficult to treat, and relapses are common.

One thing to understand about the treatment of mental illness: the patient is expected to control their behavior, and is held accountable by the therapist for their own actions. Mental illness is not an excuse to behave badly.

I know some cases of pedophilia can result from being sexually abused as a child, which would technically classify it closer to mental illness than sexuality. However, any alternate sexuality can, on rare occasions, stem from abuse. In my opinion, it should be a case-by-case basis as to whether a pedophile can keep his own kids, including a psychological evaluation and interviews with the kids. It seems a bit drastic, but I don't see pedophilia as EVER becoming socially acceptable, and there are going to be costs to it.

No. Pedophillia never stems from abuse. Child abuse of a sexual nature is a crime of violence, with power and control the motive. They may seem similar because a child is abused either way, but they are not the same.

Adults who sexually abuse their own family members are acting out their aggression and desire for power on the child. A pedophile acts purely out of sexual drives.

An adult to produces child pornography may or may not be interested in sex with children; he may be interested only in the money. It's still a crime, but it's not pedophillia.

My problem isn't with what Hyena pointed out, it's with the medical definition of "mental illness" itself. It allows for cultural traditions to be considered mental illnesses, when they are simply traditions, often spurred by religious beliefs (and nobody wants their religion considered a mental illness).

Again, no. The medical community understands the difference between differing social and cultural mores, and mental disorders. If you're going to claim a tradition is considered a mental disorder in some places, you should provide examples.

I agree with that. However, by the current medical definition, just about everyone has a mental illness of some sort. There simply has to be a better, more specific way to put it.

And once again, no. The medical community does not consider everyone or even just about everyone to have a mental illness.

Many people will suffer a temporary mental disorder in the course of their lives (depression or anxiety being common examples) but that's not the same thing as being mentally ill, and many many people never have any problems at all.

All mental illnesses described in the DSM 5 or the ICD 10 (International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems) have specific criteria that must be met before the diagnosis can be made. Physicians and psychologists are not just grabbing the first idea that comes to mind about a diagnosis or whether one even exists. Specific testing and a complete history must be taken to determine if the diagnostic criteria come close to being met.

Which brings me back to GK's comparison of pedophillia with an attraction to brunettes. The latter is simply a preference within the norm of human sexuality. The former is a mental illness. It's an apples vs oranges comparison.

As for Hyena Daddy's example of a person from a society where bathing was not a social norm, or rubbing mucous as a greeting (please tell me which culture you are referring), such a person in our society would NOT be considered anti social for conforming to the social norms they were raised with, and more than we would be considered anti social for not conforming to a social norm in another country.

Rude, maybe. But not anti social in the clinical sense.

[Aragarthiel]

Homosexuality used to be considered a paraphillia but is now considered within the spectrum of human norm.

So something can be classified as a mental illness and turn out not to be, as I've been trying to say?

No. Pedophillia never stems from abuse.

It can, and it does. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12436016

Sixty percent of pedophiles compared with 4% of control subjects reported adult sexual advances as a child. Seventy-five percent of pedophiles and 22% of control subjects reported a first sexual encounter before age 14 years.

All mental illnesses described in the DSM 5 or the ICD 10 (International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems) have specific criteria that must be met before the diagnosis can be made.

That's what I was looking for, something saying that a person cannot be diagnosed as having a mental illness based off of three (or was it four?) general criteria.

[Gravekeeper]

All mental illnesses described in the DSM 5 or the ICD 10 (International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems) have specific criteria that must be met before the diagnosis can be made.

And this is kind of part the problem. No one knows the proper definition of the word so it gets bandied around and thrown out inappropriately. Its a fairly recent thing too. It was during the 1990s that the media became obsessed with sensationalizing it and we ended up reaching this "everyone you see on the street is probably a sexual predator" level paranoia. Meanwhile the actual crimes being sensationalized were on the decline.

Which brings me back to GK's comparison of pedophillia with an attraction to brunettes. The latter is simply a preference within the norm of human sexuality. The former is a mental illness. It's an apples vs oranges comparison.

My comparison was to illustrate the sort of reaction at the root of the problem. Where the word and the crime are treated as one in the same and the word isn't even being accurately used half the time to begin with ( its often used for anything related to someone under the age of 18 for example ).

Pedophillia is notoriously difficult to treat, and relapses are common.

This is not actually accurate. We don't actually have good research data on things like relapses or re-offences. Because bias cripples most attempts right form the get go and the system is, unfortunately, built to punish offenders into re-offending instead of reward or supporting them for controlling themselves.

Its an exceedingly rare disorder to begin with. Then you need to manage to get together enough willing people to have both an accurate control group and test group. But because of the stigma attached you will never be able to get any "stable" examples from outside the prison system. No one would admit it to it. So you're left with doing research on those who are already unable to control their problems.

On the flip side, we do have a preponderance of evidence that there are genetic/physiological factors at work. However, there's a good chance that if the genetic or physiological cause is ever determined you'll have places implementing mandatory screening and using the results in an entirely punitive fashion. A preemptive sex offender registry, basically.

[Hyena Dandy]

That's what I was looking for, something saying that a person cannot be diagnosed as having a mental illness based off of three (or was it four?) general criteria.

No, you can't be diagnosed as having a mental illness. No-one said you can. I said a mental illness is described due to it meeting those criteria. I don't know how you can confuse "This is the definition of a mental illness" with "These are diagnostic criteria." They're not even vaguely the same thing, any more than describing what a virus is is a diagnosis of the flu.

[Lace Neil Singer]

The problem is that the general public, as a rule, see the word "pedophile" and automatically think, "MONSTER!". The word itself summons up that response, mainly from people who don't know what the fuck they're talking about, for example, the mob who drove a pediatrician out of her home cuz they were too ignorant to tell the difference between the word for "child doctor" and "pedophile".

An English author, Minette Walters, made this subject the topic for her novel, Acid Row. Basically, a riot occurs on a sink estate when the residents hear rumours about a pedophile moving in there, as well as a child being missing. It ends in tragedy, and the pedophile wasn't even dangerous. It was just the word fanning the flames and the general public reacting the way they always do.

[Panacea]

So something can be classified as a mental illness and turn out not to be, as I've been trying to say?

Not on a whim, though, but with considerable research and support by experts. We have support for sexuality being a range of norms because there is biological evidence that shows that homosexuality is inborn, not a choice, and that it actually serves a useful purpose for the survival of the species.

Pedophillia does not fall with the normal spectrum because it does not produce benefits and in fact produces great harm.

It can, and it does. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12436016

The authors say the support the "notion of a causative relationship" I disagree with their conclusions; they make a great case for correlation but not causation. This study is considered to old to be reliable (should be less than 5 years).

[Aragarthiel]

Not on a whim, though, but with considerable research and support by experts.

/snip

The authors say the support the "notion of a causative relationship" I disagree with their conclusions; they make a great case for correlation but not causation. This study is considered to old to be reliable (should be less than 5 years).

For the first point, it's why I've been trying to explain that more research needs to be done into pedophilia.

For the second point, you can simply google the relationship between pedophilia and childhood sexual abuse. I could not find a single study that concluded that pedophiles had anything but higher percentages of childhood sexual abuse than regular people. While it may not cause pedophilia in the way that rain causes the ground to be wet, it is definitely a contributing factor and should not be ruled out completely as a cause.

The higher percentages could, honestly, be attributed to the fact that young enough kids tend to normalize things that they're exposed to repeatedly, which can skew their judgement a bit as an adult. Though it depends on which study you look at. Most I've seen quoted 25-35% of pedophiles were victims of pedophiles as well, but there have been others where the difference was as low as 10% or as high as 80%.

Again, more research needs to be done on this. Nobody will ever be able to (at least mostly) agree on this if nobody knows what the facts are.

[Hyena Dandy]

The higher percentages could, honestly, be attributed to the fact that young enough kids tend to normalize things that they're exposed to repeatedly, which can skew their judgement a bit as an adult. Though it depends on which study you look at. Most I've seen quoted 25-35% of pedophiles were victims of pedophiles as well, but there have been others where the difference was as low as 10% or as high as 80%.

Almost all of those that I've seen have referred not to "Pedophiles" but to "Child sex offenders." There's a very important difference there, because the people who don't offend still have a motive to keep quiet and not answer surveys.

[Aragarthiel]

If I made that mistake, it's likely some of the surveys did too.

It doesn't change the numbers though, or the fact that more research needs to be done. It'll be hard to draw the non-offenders out of the woodwork until resources are available to them.

[Panacea]

Almost all of those that I've seen have referred not to "Pedophiles" but to "Child sex offenders." There's a very important difference there, because the people who don't offend still have a motive to keep quiet and not answer surveys.

Yes, precisely. This is why I don't buy into the idea that child sex abuse causes you to become a pedophile if you were not already predesposed to being a pedophile.

If I made that mistake, it's likely some of the surveys did too.

It doesn't change the numbers though, or the fact that more research needs to be done. It'll be hard to draw the non-offenders out of the woodwork until resources are available to them.

The point is lots of research IS being done in this field. Lots. The topic generates great interest, and a simple search of Pub Med reveals lots of current reserach.

The current thinking on pedophillia is that the brain is structured differently. This is the finding of MRI studies on pedophiles.

Cantor JM, Kabani N, Christensen BK, Zipursky RB, Barbaree HE, Dickey R, Klassen PE, Mikulis DJ, Kuban ME, Blak T, Richards BA, Hanratty MK, Blanchard R (2008). "Cerebral white matter deficiencies in pedophilic men". Journal of Psychiatric Research 42 (3): 167–183. doi:10.1016/j.jpsychires.2007.10.013. PMID 18039544.

Walter et al. (2007). "Pedophilia Is Linked to Reduced Activation in Hypothalamus and Lateral Prefrontal Cortex During Visual Erotic Stimulation". Biological Psychiatry. 62.

Schiffer B, Paul T, Gizewski E, Forsting M, Leygraf N, Schedlowski M, Kruger TH (May 2008). "Functional brain correlates of heterosexual paedophilia". Neuroimage 41 (1): 80–91. doi:10.1016/j.neuroimage.2008.02.008. PMID 18358744.

The evidence that sexual abuse is linked with pedophillia points more to a loss of impulse control that makes someone already inclined to pedophillia more likely to act on those desires, rather than turning someone who was not born a pedophile into one. Certainly some scientists have claimed that sexual abuse is a causative factor but when you look closer into the research (including what you can find with Google Fu) what you really find is that this is not proven as a cause.

Right now all researchers have proven is correlation. They have not proven causation.