Is a teenaged boy not allowed to say "no" ... ?

[XCashier]

Thank you (and your friends) for sharing your story.

First off, no means no, it doesn't matter which direction it's coming from. A man has just as much right to say "no" as a woman does, and to have that "no" accepted and respected. There doesn't have to be a reason for that "no". Maybe he's not in the mood, or has other things on his mind. Maybe he's got someone else already, or has a different type. Maybe he just plain doesn't like pushy people. Doesn't matter; no means no.

I can understand why Paul felt so uneasy around Ashley. When a woman is chasing after an underage teenage boy rather than going after an adult, it makes me wonder if something's not right with her. Same with a man going after an underage teenage girl, or if both parties are the same gender. Even if she's not a child molester, someone who keeps pushing even after being told "no", something's not right there. ETA, upon re-reading, I noticed this:

For one thing, he didn't trust Ashley. This was partly instinctive, partly the way Ashley could so casually lie to Paul's aunt, betraying their friendship and concealing it so easily - It gave Paul the creeps. He had decided very quickly that he wanted nothing to do with her. Paul could see too many risks, too many ways that being with her could go wrong.

and that sent up a lot of red flags. It brought to mind both The Gift Of Fear and The Sociopath Next Door. I could be over-thinking this, but he really did dodge a bullet there, and I'm glad you and his aunt and uncle all listened to him and helped him.

Rachel...jeez, what a nasty bitch. Sean was right to dump her. Doesn't matter if she didn't know Amy was his friend, anyone who'd treat someone else that badly for no reason is a jerk and you don't want that kind of person in your life.

Amy has a lot of courage to tell her story. I'm glad to see things are going well for her, and very glad to know that good and decent people like the shopkeepers and all of you who are her friends have her back. We see so much of what's wrong with humanity, we forget that there are still good, decent, kind, respectable people out there as well.

[Gravekeeper]

If I am to be completely honest; I lost my virginity due to weeks of guilt tripping from my high school girlfriend ( I thought it was too soon in the relationship and was not ready ). Afterwards there was a real sense of regret and emptiness. Like I'd somehow fucked up and lost something and was lesser for it as a person. This persisted through out the rest of the relationship till we broke up. I never initiated and would often avoid or decline her advances.

I'm sure there's a small novel worth of psychology analysis as to why.

Would a matriarchy be better? I don't think I've seen it in action in the developed countries where we use the universal "he", so I wouldn't know.

There are so so few examples of matriarchy culture in known history that its hard to tell. But judging by the few that still exist it sounds like it works better. -.-

Though I do like the gender-neutral pronouns like "hir" and "ze" and would like to see more of them in the future.

To be brutally honest with you, there are few things that can derail day to day acceptance of a minority more than trying to make people use a new invented word during interaction. Especially when its contrary to their language structure such as it is with English.

[Canarr]

This is actually a perfect example of how ingrained patriarchy harms men too.

Makes me wonder why men still bother with Patriarchy; we don't really seem to draw any advantage from it

Sorry for the snark; but I've seen Patriarchy blamed for everything from cellphones being designed too big for women's hands, over men taking up too much space on buses and trains, to women's voices sounding squeaky over microphones. Makes it kind of hard to take seriously, I have to admit.

As to Matriarchy... I don't know. In Germany, we've had a female Chancellor for almost ten years now. So far... nothing new there compared to her male predecessors. The Age of Enlightenment has not yet arrived.

To the OP: thank you for your stories; very interesting.

[lordlundar]

Sorry for the snark; but I've seen Patriarchy blamed for everything from cellphones being designed too big for women's hands, over men taking up too much space on buses and trains, to women's voices sounding squeaky over microphones. Makes it kind of hard to take seriously, I have to admit.

You're not alone. Lately "the patriarchy" seems to be the excuse used by radical feminists to blame any incidents of sexism (real or perceived and regardless of gender) on men instead of admitting that sexism is a two way street.

[Andara Bledin]

It seems a bit silly to harp on people blaming Patriarchy for something that is almost a textbook example of how Patriarchy is harmful to men.

Other stuff, sure; cell phone sizes, how much space people take... have at it, because those are silly.

But people using stereotypes to challenge or mock behavior that's outside of the gender norm is precisely why people are against it.

Oh, and btw: Patriarchy isn't something specific to men per se; it's a complaint about how the male-dominated societies that most of us are a part of have a lot of ingrained bullshit that we still haven't managed to excise from our expectations and priorities. Everything from women being expected to raise the kids (or even to have kids at all) to men being expected to be brawny tough guys who always want sex, to too many insults implying that being man-like is desired while being feminine is degrading (don't be a pussy, grow some balls, man up, etc, etc, etc)...

[Aragarthiel]

it's a complaint about how the male-dominated societies that most of us are a part of have a lot of ingrained bullshit that we still haven't managed to excise from our expectations and priorities.

Because of biology, I don't think this will ever be totally done away with. Men are designed to be more muscular while women hold more fat for babymaking, and there are other such differences that we can't help but they cause problems anyway. For example, being a firefighter requires strength for carrying equipment, holding the fire hose, or carrying people out of burning buildings. Men are always going to dominate that profession, because there will always be fewer women strong enough to do those jobs. The only thing women will always be better at than men because of biology is having babies. Even if everything else was equal, the biology isn't.

[Canarr]

It seems a bit silly to harp on people blaming Patriarchy for something that is almost a textbook example of how Patriarchy is harmful to men.

Other stuff, sure; cell phone sizes, how much space people take... have at it, because those are silly.

But people using stereotypes to challenge or mock behavior that's outside of the gender norm is precisely why people are against it.

But... that's just... sexism, isn't it?

Full Definition of SEXISM
1: prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

If you disregard, "especially : discrimination against women", then that is exactly what we're talking about here - people placing restrictions, prejudices, social roles on others because of their gender. In the OP's case(s), on boys and young men.

Where, exactly, does "patriarchy" fit in? Why is this a concept that is needed, when "sexism" already covers the topic? I simply fail to see the point here.

People behave in sexist ways towards each other - men against men, women against women, men against women and women against men. Just as people can and will behave in a lot of other crappy ways towards each other; while individual people can be kind, generous, caring... people in large groups tend to be assholes. Doesn't require a "patriarchy".

[Kheldarson]

Where, exactly, does "patriarchy" fit in? Why is this a concept that is needed, when "sexism" already covers the topic?

It defines how we're assholes to one another. In a gender-neutral or woman-centric society, your rules, norms, and conventions are going to be fundamentally different than a male-centric one. Including what sort of insults you use. It shows what ideas you have to adress, culturally, to gain an equality.

[Hyena Dandy]

Where, exactly, does "patriarchy" fit in? Why is this a concept that is needed, when "sexism" already covers the topic?

Because sexism and patriarchy are different parts of speech. That said, I'm still not always comfortable with it, since one, patriarchy is already a term that also describes a type of society we DON'T have (For the most part. There are places/subcultures that ARE that type, but it's not an entire society-wide thing,) and two, I don't feel comfortable using a term that implies "It's all better for men," when there are certainly ways that it isn't beneficial. I certainly know men who have suffered from abuse who just feel more hurt when someone phrases it in a way that feels like "This is all because of how great society is for you!" I definitely want to respect that.

[Anthony K. S.]

I just want to make sure that everybody understands that the patriarchy is not solely responsible for the biases at issue here.

The comments that Lindsay had quoted included these :

"When I was in high school, I had guys hitting on me every damn day, and at least three of my teachers made passes at me. All my girlfriends had similar experiences, or worse. And you expect me to feel bad for a 15-year-old guy getting hit on by a woman who looks like a Playboy model? Give me a break. If anything, this would be a good lesson for him. Maybe now he'll understand what girls have to go through all the time."

"So now he knows how girls feel every day. Good."

Those statements do not sound to me like they would have originated in male chauvinist ideology, but they are still destructive. And at the end of her essay, Lindsay wrote :

I can say from my real life experience that women can be every bit as prejudiced and as cruel on this as men can. Sometimes more.

Women spend just as much time as men perpetuating the stereotype that men in general, and teenaged boys in particular, care only about sex. I have dealt with women who insist that it simply doesn't happen that women sexually harass or assault men, and the idea that it does is nothing more than a misogynistic myth. I have heard women openly say that it would be a good thing for a man to be sexually harassed so that he'd understand what women have to deal with.

This reminds me of when Catherine Comins (a former dean at Vassar College) infamously stated in 1991 that men who are falsely accused of rape should try to learn from the experience :

Comins argues that men who are unjustly accused can sometimes gain from the experience. "They have a lot of pain, but it is not a pain that I would necessarily have spared them. I think it ideally initiates a process of self-exploration. 'How do I see women? If I didn't violate her, could I have? Do I have the potential to do to her what they say I did?' Those are good questions." - Time Magazine

It is not the patriarchy alone that needs to be addressed.

[NecCat]

Though I do like the gender-neutral pronouns like "hir" and "ze" and would like to see more of them in the future.

To be brutally honest with you, there are few things that can derail day to day acceptance of a minority more than trying to make people use a new invented word during interaction. Especially when its contrary to their language structure such as it is with English.

I would actually welcome such words, as an addition to the current ones, not as a replacement for the 'bad' words like her and he. When I am confused as to what gender to refer to someone by I end up using they and their really awkwardly. It would make life a lot easier to be able to say things like:

I don't really agree with the point Gravekeeper made when ze was talking about making people use new words.

(NB. Gk, I know you are male but there are many people who post on the internet whose gender I don't have a clue about)

[NecCat]

If I am to be completely honest; I lost my virginity due to weeks of guilt tripping from my high school girlfriend ( I thought it was too soon in the relationship and was not ready ). Afterwards there was a real sense of regret and emptiness. Like I'd somehow fucked up and lost something and was lesser for it as a person. This persisted through out the rest of the relationship till we broke up. I never initiated and would often avoid or decline her advances.

I'm sorry that happened for you. I really am. No one should feel like they have to have sex when they don't really want to.

I'm just not sure that it was a result of society pressuring men into not being allowed to say no. That individual used pressure (guilt is pressure) into not allowing you to say no, but I suspect that if you had reached outside the couple for help or advise other people would have supported you and given you help to make that no loud and clear for her until and unless you changed your mind.

I think part of the problem is that relationships are between two people, and it feels like a betrayal to let someone else into the important parts of that relationship. So unless you have a situation like in the OP with the aunt's friend, and there is no relationship, it feels wrong to even ask for support or advice. Woman are taught about personal safety, respect and ownership over their bodies from a youngish age. It is time to teach men the same thing, so they can recognize situations like yours.

[BlaqueKatt]

patriarchy is already a term that also describes a type of society we DON'T have (For the most part. There are places/subcultures that ARE that type, but it's not an entire society-wide thing,) and two, I don't feel comfortable using a term that implies "It's all better for men,"

then you don't understand the definition(you possibly know the strawman definition).
"a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it."

that's it, nothing about "better for men"(there's also things like intersectionality that affect privileged status), look at the US government, women largely excluded(we didn't get the right to vote until less than 100 years ago.) And then men suffering from abuse is partially because "men are supposed to be stronger" and ridiculed for reporting abuse, because they're "obviously weak". -_-

[Lindsay B.]

I would like to thank everybody who took the time to read my essay and share their thoughts on it. I am very grateful to all of you. Now, I would like to share my own reactions to some of the comments that have been made here. First, the ones that are easy to respond to :

When you meet a guy for the first time and he compliments you on the locket you're wearing ... and you respond by telling him all about how your former boyfriend, who you just broke up with a few months earlier because he was going to college in another state, gave it to you for your one-year anniversary and you've worn it ever since ... Certain conclusions will be reached.

Point taken.

NecCat, when you assert that, contrary to what Lindsay was suggesting, that society as a whole is not dismissive of a man's right to refuse an advance ... I can safely say that Lindsay's reaction would be to fervently hope that you are right.

I do. I really do.

We see so much of what's wrong with humanity, we forget that there are still good, decent, kind, respectable people out there as well.

Thank you very much. My friends and I really appreciate all of your kind words.

Amy has built a really wonderful life for herself, and we are all - Amy's family, especially - very happy for her and proud of the progress she's made and what she has accomplished.

I am particularly looking forward to being Amy's Maid of Honor next year.

You know, for a long while, I wasn't sure that Amy was ever going to find a boyfriend at all. At first, just the idea of going out with anyone made Amy really nervous. But even after she overcame her extreme shyness about dating ...

There were quite a few boys who showed an interest in Amy, but they tended to shy away from her once they found out about her mental illness. Nevertheless, whenever somebody asked Amy for a date, she would insist on telling him about her condition up front, before going out with him at all.

Amy wanted to be honest with him. She also felt that it wasn't fair to him, or to herself, to let the two of them become emotionally attached to each other, if it was just going to turn out that her illness wasn't something that he felt he could cope with. I certainly understood and respected this, but every so often, I couldn't help feeling that it might be a good idea for Amy to consider letting a guy get to know her for just an evening or two first.

Somebody close to me suggested that I just let Amy do what she felt comfortable with, and have a little faith. (I come from a devoutly Christian background. "Have faith" was advice that I received a lot.) And, well, what do you know ...

Amy met a new co-worker who was really nice (and cute). She later said that she had to force herself not to giggle at the way he was visibly struggling to work up the courage to ask her out. (Amy thought it was sweet.) Well, as you'd expect, he was quite taken aback when she told him about her mental illness, but he sincerely liked Amy and was willing to take a chance with her. In fact, he said that he really appreciated her honesty - which was something Amy had heard several times before, usually as a prelude to a guy backing out of going on a date with her. In this case, though, he saw it as a reason to trust her, and more reason to want to give her a chance.

Their relationship hasn't been perfect - Whose is? - and yes, Amy's illness has created its share of obstacles, but in the end, those two made each other so happy that most of us were able to see it was only a matter of time before the ring.

... It certainly took them long enough to realize it, though.

I don't feel comfortable using a term that implies "It's all better for men," when there are certainly ways that it isn't beneficial. I certainly know men who have suffered from abuse who just feel more hurt when someone phrases it in a way that feels like "This is all because of how great society is for you!" I definitely want to respect that.

Thank you very much for making this point.

I remember reading a very candid Op-Ed by a public interest attorney who expressed frustration with, among other things, feminists complaining that people keep misinterpreting "fighting against patriarchy" as helping women, exclusively, at the expense of men, rather than helping both genders.

She wrote, "Say, here's a novel idea. Do you know what a thesaurus is? ... If using the word 'patriarchy' is causing so many problems for you, then why don't you try using a more gender-neutral term instead? For example, try talking about 'societal gender biases' instead of 'patriarchal biases.' Maybe that will help. I mean, what is your goal here? Do you want to give vocabulary lessons, or do you want to convince people to help fight against sexism?"

This woman was not, by any means, suggesting that changing terminology would solve the problem altogether. Her point was that by using a gender-specific word like "patriarchy," feminists were making their own work harder than it needed to be. She argued that for lawyers as well as activists, your audience's perception of you is vitally important, and will often be heavily influenced by the words you choose to use.

Perception becomes especially important when you are seeking to gain the trust and confidence of those who have been severely hurt by people they trusted.

I feel that if you sincerely wish to provide support to victims of abuse, then telling them that the reason they're hurting is because of how favored they are in society is not apt to be helpful. It doesn't matter if that's not what you meant by it. What matters is that if they perceive it that way, it will intensify the pain and humiliation they're feeling. It might also discourage them from seeking help, since one of the key reasons why abuse victims don't come forward is the fear that they won't be believed or taken seriously - or, worse yet, that they will be viewed as the perpetrators.

When a man who has been sexually assaulted is unwilling to speak to a female detective, what do you do? You send for a male detective to talk to him. No different from when a female rape victim wishes to only speak to a female police officer.

If a female abuse victim tells you that she finds a particular word to be hurtful, you stop saying it. You don't try to "educate" her on what the word actually means. And it's the same for male victims of abuse.

I have felt frustrated with people who seem to care more about being right than about actually providing comfort to those in need. If you really want to help, then try to avoid doing things that will make the situation worse, whether you think it's reasonable or not.


... And now, the comments that are harder to respond to :

I really think these people are more confused as to why someone would turn down a hot chick like that

To me, it seemed harsher than that. They weren't just wondering why he said no. They were insisting that there was no possible justification for him to say no, and berating him for doing so. They were implying, or flatly saying, that he was stupid, cowardly, or gay. And I should have said this earlier : The fact that they were calling him gay as if that was an insult is just more proof of how small-minded these people are.

This is actually a perfect example of how ingrained patriarchy harms men too.

I wasn't sure how to approach this ... I think that what I really want people to keep in mind here is that, regardless of where these biases originated, the people who perpetuate them are present in all ideological groups, including the feminist movement.

There are, of course, the "radical extremists" who spread all manner of hateful anti-male bigotry, like the ones I mentioned at the end of my essay. However, there are also men and women who genuinely mean well but will perpetuate these biases without intending to. It often takes the form of a person making some variation of the statement, "Well, of course it's wrong for a woman to sexually harass a man, but ..." This usually ends with an attempt to rationalize or dismiss an example of said behavior. But that's not what these people believe they're doing. In their minds, they are simply trying to be fair, or keep things in perspective.

Also, when a person makes an accusation of sexual misconduct, the genders of the people involved will often influence how the allegation is judged. This is not a feminist bias. It's a societal bias, but one that feminists are not immune to :

When the alleged abuse is male-on-female, they will actively look for reasons to believe the allegation.
When the alleged abuse is female-on-male, they will actively look for reasons to doubt the allegation.
When the alleged abuse is male-on-male or female-on-female, it could go either way.

Please understand, this is not to say that these people wouldn't ever believe that a particular female accuser is lying, or that a particular male accuser is telling the truth. Only that they will show a skepticism of a male accuser that they likely wouldn't tolerate anyone showing if the accuser is female.

My friend Karen (Paul's fiancee, as I mentioned earlier) had a colleague who admitted, with deep regret, to having done this for years without ever realizing it.

If I am to be completely honest; I lost my virginity due to weeks of guilt tripping from my high school girlfriend ( I thought it was too soon in the relationship and was not ready ). Afterwards there was a real sense of regret and emptiness. Like I'd somehow fucked up and lost something and was lesser for it as a person. This persisted through out the rest of the relationship till we broke up. I never initiated and would often avoid or decline her advances. I'm sure there's a small novel worth of psychology analysis as to why.

Thank you very much for sharing your story with us. I respect that it must have been very difficult, and I am very sorry that this happened to you.

I hope you understand that there is only one person at fault in your story, and it isn't you. Just think of everything that you would say about a teenaged girl being pressured by her boyfriend into having sex with him when she didn't want to, and feeling hurt and empty afterward ... and realize that it is not any different just because the genders are reversed.

I'm just not sure that it was a result of society pressuring men into not being allowed to say no. That individual used pressure (guilt is pressure) into not allowing you to say no, but I suspect that if you had reached outside the couple for help or advise other people would have supported you and given you help to make that no loud and clear for her until and unless you changed your mind.

That might be so, but you have to ask yourself why a young man in this situation would choose not to reach out for help.

I think part of the problem is that relationships are between two people, and it feels like a betrayal to let someone else into the important parts of that relationship. So unless you have a situation like in the OP with the aunt's friend, and there is no relationship, it feels wrong to even ask for support or advice.

It took months for Paul to confide the truth in me, and I was closer to him than almost anybody. Even then, I had to practically force it out of him.

I have no idea what Gravekeeper's personal situation was, and I honestly don't wish to go into any more detail about Paul's reasons for not coming to us sooner.

But I will say that in general, I firmly believe that a major reason why a young man would choose not to seek help is out of fear that he won't be supported, taken seriously, or even believed. And that is precisely because of the societal biases that we're talking about here, that men and boys should not be expected to ever say no to sex. I also believe that female abusers will deliberately take advantage of this (like Ashley did).

It may, indeed, be about the expectation of privacy in a relationship, as you said. But I honestly believe that societal pressure plays much more of a role here than you are indicating.

Woman are taught about personal safety, respect and ownership over their bodies from a youngish age. It is time to teach men the same thing, so they can recognize situations like yours.

Agreed.

[Gravekeeper]

But... that's just... sexism, isn't it?

Patriarchy is a social system in which: males hold primary power; males predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property; and, in the domain of the family, fathers or father-figures hold authority over women and children.

Its not "just" sexism. It refers to a social structure. Sexism is clearly involved, but patriarchy is the end result. Its sort of like saying slavery was just racism. Racism was obviously involved, but slavery was the resulting societal norm that stemmed from it.

I would actually welcome such words, as an addition to the current ones, not as a replacement for the 'bad' words like her and he. When I am confused as to what gender to refer to someone by I end up using they and their really awkwardly.

But that doesn't change your problem much. By using "ze" you're still telling a person you don't recognize their gender identity. That's fine on the interwebs where we're all just words but in IRL where this kind of confusion can be massively awkward and embarrassing, all a new pronoun does is effectively rename the awkwardness.

I'm just not sure that it was a result of society pressuring men into not being allowed to say no. That individual used pressure (guilt is pressure) into not allowing you to say no, but I suspect that if you had reached outside the couple for help or advise other people would have supported you and given you help to make that no loud and clear for her until and unless you changed your mind.

Yeah, not exactly. I mean, sure if I had sought help from close family they would have gladly advised me. But its not the sort of problem you bring to your mom as a teenage boy. I mean, its the sort of problem you *should* but you don't because you're a teenage boy and you're not suppose to. If anyone ever found out you asked your mom for advice you would be mocked mercilessly by your peers.

Conversely, it would be completely acceptable for a teenage girl to seek the same advice from her mother.

As for my peers, well. My peers were largely fixated on whether or not I had gotten any from her yet and were cheering that I would get some as it were because they heard a rumour she puts out and thus this was totally my chance. So yeah, no help from the male side of things there.

To be completely honest with you, my relationship with her was also the turning point where my social circle gender flipped. It was the point where I realized I didn't understand my male friends/peers anymore. My circle of friends had been slipping by grade 9-10 as. As male friends turned their interests to the unending pursuit of vagina and those who were not terribly interested went along with it because they thought they were suppose too and would be ostracized if they didn't.

By grade 11 my social circle had flipped entirely to girls and one gay guy. And to be brutally honest I was much better off for it. It would be years before I met any other guys that were out of that "phase" ( or going along with that phase because the pack leader was in that phase ).

I hope you understand that there is only one person at fault in your story, and it isn't you.

Yes, I do. I mean this was way back in high school so its not like its recent trauma or anything. This was way back although I will honestly admit it screwed me up for a number of years in terms of relationships. It probably took me about 4-5 years to really work it out and let it go.

Which kind of goes to show how much damage this sort of shit does.