Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Is a teenaged boy not allowed to say "no" ... ?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Is a teenaged boy not allowed to say "no" ... ?

    Author's Note : Over the past few days, I wrote this personal reflection on how men, especially teenaged boys, are often stereotyped when it comes to sex. By the time I was finished, it turned out to be a great deal longer than I'd intended. I considered going back to pare it down, but I honestly don't think I have the emotional strength to go through it all again. I've decided to simply post it as is (in two parts because it's actually longer than the maximum length for a single post), and leave it up to you folks here to decide if you have the patience to read the whole thing. I will be very grateful if you do, or even if you just read part of it or skim through it. Thank you very much.


    Just recently, I was cleaning out my hard drive when I came across a file of notes and personal reflections I had made about interesting videos I'd found in places like YouTube, Dailymotion, and news sites. As I was looking through it, I found myself staring at something that I had somehow managed to avoid thinking about for a long time. Like a tidal wave, it brought back so many memories, so much anger ...

    About two years ago, I watched a video of an ABC News segment :

    A 15-year-old boy is sitting at a table in a crowded New York restaurant, studying and waiting for his math tutor to arrive. The tutor turns out to be an extremely attractive blond woman, wearing an inappropriately low-cut top and short, tight skirt. As their tutoring session begins, she starts coming on to the boy. He repeatedly tells her to stop, and asks her to help him with his work, but she persists in hitting on him, growing ever more seductive and shamelessly obvious. Finally, she suggests that they go to her house to finish the lesson. The boy seems embarrassed, confused, and even scared. The other customers in the restaurant have witnessed all of this, in increasing discomfort and disbelief. What the customers didn't know was that this was all staged.

    An ABC News crew had set up hidden cameras throughout the restaurant. The boy and the tutor were both actors. The restaurant employees all knew that the ABC crew was there, and what they were doing. This was a "social experiment," to find out how people would react if they saw this happening right in front of them.

    Now, I think that it's fairly obvious how people would respond to seeing a grown man coming on to a 15-year-old girl who was trying to push him away and repeatedly telling him to stop. But what if the genders were reversed? Would the bystanders intervene, or do nothing?

    You know, maybe I was just being cynical, but when I read the description of this segment, I immediately resigned myself to seeing the restaurant patrons doing absolutely nothing to help the boy. Much to my surprise and gratitude, however, they did intervene. Admittedly, those interventions were nowhere near as quick or as forceful as they undoubtedly would have been for a teenaged girl receiving unwanted attention from a grown man, but our society being what it is, I don't think we could have expected that.

    They repeated this scenario several times with different customers, and each time, somebody stepped in to help the boy when they saw that he didn't like the tutor's advances. I vividly remember things like the patrons sarcastically asking the tutor if she was a "sex ed" teacher, and telling the tutor that she should "take a survey" if she doesn't understand why her behavior was embarrassing to the boy. At one point, the tutor tried to take the boy home with her, and a group of women physically blocked them from leaving, saying "He's not going anywhere with you" and "It'll be a cold day in hell before he leaves with you."

    (There was only one time that the patrons did not intervene at all. In this particular run, the crew instructed the actors to make it look like the attraction was mutual. When it appeared that the boy and tutor were both willing participants, there were raised eyebrows, but nobody said anything.)

    It was mostly women who took action to help the boy, but a few men as well. In one case, a man was visibly angered by what he was seeing, but his wife kept telling him to stay out of it. In the final run, a table of four men reached out to the boy when the tutor briefly left, and invited him to join them. When the tutor tried to take the boy home with her, the men made it clear to her that it wasn't going to happen.

    I was amazed, impressed, and deeply touched by how the restaurant patrons sought to protect the boy from the woman trying to take advantage of him. It gave me renewed hope ... If only I had stopped there. If only I had quit while I was ahead.

    I should never have read the "Comments." I knew that I shouldn't. I honestly don't know why I did.

    I couldn't get through more than a few pages of the Comments before I had to stop, or else I would have punched a hole through the wall, or my computer screen. It was a strange mix of feelings I had - I was not at all surprised, and at the same time, I couldn't believe what I was reading ...

    "He cares more about school than this hot ass teacher? That is fucked up, man."
    "When I was 15, if I had a sexy tutor like that coming on to me, I'd have gone home with her in a second. Any man who says differently is either gay or lying."
    "If I saw that the kid didn't want to go with her, I'd have done everything I could to encourage him to go. I would have said trust me, you won't regret it."
    "Why the fuck would any straight 15-year-old male pass up a chance like this? No wonder he can't pass math. He's stupid."
    "He was gay. No other explanations possible. Not that there's anything wrong with being gay, just saying ..."
    "If I'd been there, I'd have intervened all right - to tell the boy to quit being a pussy and get himself some pussy instead. LOL."
    "If this had happened to me when I was a teenager, I'd have killed anyone who tried to stop it."
    "Listen, a teacher hitting on a teenaged student is seriously messed up - when it's a male teacher and a female student. A hot female teacher putting the moves on a teenaged boy is AWESOME."
    "Why did those women have to cockblock him like that? Jeez, New Yorkers are stuck up."
    "It's only rape if she's ugly."
    "I don't mean to sound sexist here, but consent is really only relevant if it's a woman."
    "Men can't be raped. That's a biological fact, and you're kidding yourself if you think it isn't."
    "No wonder he needs a tutor. He's a moron."
    "Uh, no, this is bullshit. If you are normal, meaning straight, you should be attracted to a hot ass like this. He's old enough to be a man about this. If I was there and he was whining like this, I'd have had a field day mocking and berating the little [string of homophobic slurs] ..."
    "This scenario is completely unrealistic, unless the boy is gay. If it was a girl abused by a man, that'd make sense, though." [FYI - This comment was written by a woman.]
    "How the fuck is this a bad thing? He gets laid, and he gets help passing school. I don't see a down side."
    "I'd say to the kid, 'Hey, dude, are you gay or just stupid?'"
    "When I was in high school, I had guys hitting on me every damn day, and at least three of my teachers made passes at me. All my girlfriends had similar experiences, or worse. And you expect me to feel bad for a 15-year-old guy getting hit on by a woman who looks like a Playboy model? Give me a break. If anything, this would be a good lesson for him. Maybe now he'll understand what girls have to go through all the time."
    "Let me get this straight. A 15-year-old boy is about to have the greatest sex of his life, and we gotta stop it? OMFG, what is this world coming to?"
    "If she was ugly, it'd make a whole lot more sense. Just saying she was way too attractive to rape anybody."
    "If that was my son, I'd give him a wink and a thumbs up. And if he tried to whine that he didn't want to, I'd slap him for being gay, a wimp, or an idiot. Or all three."
    "As a high school teacher, and a mother of two sons, I can tell you right now that this is a fantasy. Anybody who has spent time around teenaged boys knows that they are way too driven by hormones to say no to a woman even half as beautiful as this actress. I am not putting down boys. It's not their fault, it's just biology. I would certainly never put down my own sons. I'm just being realistic. In real life, this simply doesn't happen."
    "It's only rape if you don't want it. And if a 15-year-old boy really doesn't want a piece of that, there's something wrong with him."
    "They were just jealous, that's all. The women were jealous of this hot babe, and the men were jealous because ... Well, you know."
    "When the tutor left, I'd have gone straight to the kid and said, 'Grow some balls and fuck the shit outta her.'"
    "I would totally bang her. Shut the fuck up all you people saying it's rape. It's only rape if the kid doesn't want to, but in this case, I'd say he wants to. He's got to want to."
    "If I was there, I'd be asking WTF is wrong with the kid."
    "I can't believe all those idiots actually fell for this B.S. I would've taken one look at this hot piece of ass and known right away that there was no way in hell that a teenaged boy would say no to her. Cuz I'm not a moron."
    "So now he knows how girls feel every day. Good."
    "Did that kid take stupid pills this morning?"
    And on and on and on ... As I was reading through one sexist comment after another, my hands were soon shaking and clenching with rage. I just had this one thought pounding through my head, over and over and over :

    "He said no! He said NO! What in God's name is wrong with you people? Why can't you understand? HE SAID NO!"

    So men in general, and teenaged boys in particular, are not allowed to say, "I don't want to." Is that it? I was so angry, I was on the verge of breaking down crying. In fact, I'm not entirely sure that I didn't. My memory of that is kind of a blur ...

    How many decades has it taken for our society to understand that when a girl says no, she means no? I see it taking even longer for this. We could accept a boy's word for it that he just doesn't want to. We could respect his choice. We could protect him from a sexual predator - and any woman who does this is a sexual predator. But, no. Instead, these people would berate him for being gay or stupid, tell him to be a "real man," and pressure him to say yes to something he doesn't want to be a part of.

    When a girl is pressured, coerced, intimidated, or harassed into saying yes when she doesn't want to, that is unquestionably wrong ... It should not be any different just because it's a boy saying no.

    ... It probably sounds like I have a personal stake in this. I do. I have a story - Two, in particular. I'm going to give you a condensed version of these events, because describing them in full would take several pages. For privacy reasons, I have changed the names of all of the people involved, with two exceptions - my sister, Katie, and my husband, Sean.


    My first story involves my high school sweetheart, Paul.

    (Sean, dear heart, just bear with me.)

    Paul often stayed at his aunt and uncle's house, because his parents traveled a lot. His aunt had a close friend named Ashley, who was a frequent visitor to their house. Ashley was 26, and she could have been a model.

    ... I swear, Ashley seemed so nice.

    Before long, I noticed that Paul always seemed very quiet and uncomfortable when Ashley was around. I actually thought that Paul had a crush on Ashley and felt awkward around her, especially when I was with him at the same time. I remember thinking that I should have been unhappy about this, but I honestly didn't mind. Ashley was gorgeous. I figured that it was natural for any teenaged boy to be attracted to her. I even began teasing Paul about it, making little jokes about how nice it must be to have Ashley in his house all the time. Sometimes, when Ashley was nearby, I would snuggle up close to Paul, playing up the "clingy, jealous girlfriend" thing. It was all in good fun. Or so I thought. I was quite, quite wrong.

    I honestly don't know how it could have escaped my notice for so long. Eventually, I began to realize that there was something more going on here than just an awkward crush. Paul seemed really tense and anxious whenever Ashley was present. He was always reluctant to talk to her or even about her, and would often go out of his way to avoid being alone with her.

    As time passed, it only grew worse. I began noticing a lot of odd things. For example, when Paul's family had a big dinner with several friends and relatives invited, I happened to see Paul in their living room, changing the seating arrangement. At first, I thought he was making sure that he and I would be sitting together, but then I realized that Paul's aunt had already put the two of us next to each other. I discovered that Paul was moving Ashley's seat all the way to the other end of the table from where we would be.

    But Paul wouldn't talk about it. Every time I tried to bring it up, he would cut me off with a one-word answer and change the subject.

    One afternoon, Paul was hanging out at my house, with me and my sister, Katie. We were all having fun, until I talked about Ashley. The mere mention of her name instantly made Paul stop smiling and tense up. I had had enough, and with Katie's help, insisted that Paul tell me what was bothering him. It eventually came down to me threatening to break up with him if he still refused to talk to me. (I was bluffing, but Paul didn't know that.) It was then that I found out the truth.

    Ashley had been coming on to Paul for months, virtually every single time that she could get him alone, and sometimes (in small ways) even when other people were present. Paul had told her repeatedly that he had a girlfriend and he wasn't interested in Ashley, but she just wouldn't let up. He had kept this all to himself for so long, but when he finally started talking, he just let it all out. Ashley was making him feel so uncomfortable and humiliated, and he was now at his wit's end - frustrated, confused, and having no idea what he should do.
    I consider myself a "theoretical feminist." That is, in pure theory, feminism is the belief that men and women should be treated equally, a belief that I certainly share. To what extent I would support feminism in its actual, existing form is a separate matter.

  • #2
    "Shocked" and "horrified" do not even begin to describe how I felt. It hurt me so much to imagine how Paul must have felt, all alone in so much pain and despair, for so long. Katie was about ready to go find Ashley and tear her head off. I felt like I should have been right there with her, but I was too overwhelmed with concern for Paul to spare a thought for anything else. Katie and I went with Paul to see his aunt and uncle, when he finally, reluctantly, agreed to tell them the truth.

    ... You know, I really don't have the words to adequately describe the rage that Paul's aunt flew into. Her husband had to physically restrain her.

    Paul's family cut Ashley out of their lives completely, and told her that if she ever went anywhere near Paul again, they'd call the police ... along with a few other threats that I don't particularly care to repeat. Honestly, as angry as I was at Ashley (and believe me, that was something), I couldn't help shuddering a little at the icy tone of voice in which Paul's aunt told her, "I suggest you make yourself scarce before Paul's mother returns home."

    Paul had had several reasons for rejecting Ashley's advances. For one thing, he didn't trust Ashley. This was partly instinctive, partly the way Ashley could so casually lie to Paul's aunt, betraying their friendship and concealing it so easily - It gave Paul the creeps. He had decided very quickly that he wanted nothing to do with her. Paul could see too many risks, too many ways that being with her could go wrong.

    But the most important reason he refused her ... and this was what I felt teary-eyed over ... was, as he told me, "I didn't want to cheat on you. I love you. I would never want to hurt you like that."

    And you know, maybe it means I'm naive, or simple-minded, or I "need to grow up," because I honestly believed that a 16-year-old boy really could be that mature and caring, but I always knew in my heart that Paul meant what he said.

    Yes, people really did say those things to me.

    I find myself thinking about some talks I had with a friend I made in college, who had grown up in Littleton, Colorado. It's interesting how a teenaged boy can physically throw himself over a friend and shield her from a bullet with his own body ... but we still believe that it's impossible for a teenaged boy to resist his hormones in order to protect a girl he loves.

    What really made me so angry about the video comments I quoted above was that they sounded very similar to the things that Ashley said to Paul, to pressure him to give in to her (insinuating that there was something wrong with him for refusing), and also to pressure him to keep silent (that nobody would believe him, nobody would believe a 16-year-old boy would reject a beautiful 26-year-old woman, and if they did, they'd think, again, that there was something wrong with him for doing so).

    Paul was lucky. He had a family and friends, and a girlfriend, who believed him, and supported him, when he came to them. I wonder how many male victims of abuse, especially younger ones, keep silent because they think nobody will believe or support them ... or, worse yet, actually come forward, and find that, in fact, nobody will. Especially when the abuser is a woman.

    We only told a few of our closest friends about what happened to Paul. Our friends were initially incredulous, and then extremely impressed. One female friend of mine just kept gushing about how lucky I was to have a boyfriend who loved me so much.

    (Paul and I decided to end our relationship when we graduated from high school, mainly because he was going to college in a different state. We sort of lost touch with each other after a while. A little over a year ago, Paul returned to New York, with his fiancee, Karen. It was a little awkward at first, but Paul and I became friends again, along with Karen and my husband, Sean. We're all really good friends now.)


    My second story takes place during my first year in college. I had just met my future husband, Sean. At the time of this story, though, we were just good friends. (I actually found out later that Sean had been nursing a crush on me ever since we first met, but he kept it to himself because, he explained, he could tell from talking to me that it was too soon after my breakup with Paul. I can't imagine what I could have done to give Sean that impression.)

    Sean and I were both friends with a lovely girl named Amy, who worked in a small local convenience store. Amy was a really sweet person, a lot of fun to be with, and also quite pretty. She tended to shy away from dating, although it certainly wasn't because there was any shortage of interested boys.

    One time, in the store, Amy was chatting with one of her classmates, who then asked her for a date. To my amazement, she looked at him very seriously and said, "If you really want to go out with me, there's something I feel you should know up front. I have a hereditary mental illness. There's no cure for it, but it's well-controlled now with medication and therapy. I have been hospitalized at times, and on two separate occasions, I tried to commit suicide."

    Amy's would-be suitor got really annoyed, and told her, "You know, if you're not interested in going out with me, you could have just said so." He left the store, shaking his head. Amy looked at me, gave me a sort of half-smile, and shrugged. That guy had assumed that Amy was making that up ... She wasn't.

    When I first met Amy, her illness was fairly well-controlled, although she told me that it had been extremely difficult for her and her family to cope with when she was growing up. (I should think so. There were two suicide attempts in her past.) Even now, she would say that she sometimes felt like she was trying to navigate a maze of obstacles inside her own mind.

    To many people who interacted with Amy, including customers, she seemed perfectly normal. But a person who spent a significant length of time with Amy would likely notice odd behaviors. For example, her emotional state tended to turn around on a dime. I saw some "mood swings" in her that would have been perplexing if I hadn't known about her condition. Every now and then, Amy would repeat herself unnecessarily, or abruptly change the subject of a conversation to something completely unrelated. Sometimes, Amy would tense up for no apparent reason, which usually meant that she was trying to block out or ignore a sound, or a voice, that she thought she was hearing. All of these, I was told, are common to people with Amy's illness.

    One afternoon, after a class, Sean and I met a new student named Rachel, who was extremely attractive. From the way that Sean and Rachel were looking at each other, I could see right away that I was going to have to do without Sean's company for a while.

    The three of us went to a nearby lounge for dinner. Sean and Rachel really hit it off, and soon I was feeling like a fifth wheel. The only reason I didn't make an excuse to leave was because Sean was giving me a look that I knew meant he needed me to stay for moral support. He would have turned into a nervous wreck otherwise. As we parted ways at the end of the evening, Rachel was giving Sean her phone number, just as I expected.

    Over the next few weeks, Sean spent more and more time with Rachel. I kind of missed hanging out with my friend, but I was really happy for him. Rachel seemed like a really nice person, and she clearly liked Sean very much. Meanwhile, I was spending more time hanging out with Amy. One evening, I was talking to Amy and the subject of her most recent therapy session came up. There was a girl sitting nearby who kept glancing over at us and raising an eyebrow. I didn't think anything of it at the time.

    A day or two later, Sean and I went into the convenience store and were shocked to find Amy sitting by the window, crying, with the store owner's wife trying to comfort her. Apparently, the girl who had overheard my conversation with Amy had come to the store with a friend of hers, and they started mocking and harassing Amy in an extremely cruel manner, calling her "crazy," saying that everybody should watch out because the crazy girl might come to get them, and worse. (In reality, people with Amy's illness are usually dangerous only to themselves. They are at high risk for suicide, but are seldom violent toward others.)

    When Amy's older brother arrived to take her home, the store owner's wife went to talk to him and I was hugging and holding Amy, comforting her as best I could. At one point, I could swear, I thought I heard Amy whispering that she didn't want to kill herself. I wasn't sure I even wanted to know. I made certain to tell Amy's family what I thought she'd said.

    The store owner showed us a picture of the two girls responsible for this, and as if we hadn't gotten enough bad news for the day, Sean and I were stunned to see that the second girl was Rachel. I will say, again, she seemed so nice ...

    I saw Amy's brother looking at the picture and muttering, "They're lucky they're girls."

    The store owner's wife was seething, and wishing that she could have a word with the girls' parents, at which point Sean gave her Rachel's phone number. It's funny how things sometimes work out all on their own, better than you could have ever planned them.

    Early the next day, I walked into a student lounge to find Sean telling Rachel to go fuck herself. I could not recall ever seeing him look so angry. Well, my one regret about this was that I wasn't there to see the whole thing. What really made me roll my eyes was when Rachel said, "I didn't know she was a friend of yours!" As if that somehow made it better.

    Rachel also tried to rationalize her behavior by saying that the store owner shouldn't have hired somebody who might be dangerous to the customers. First of all, there was never any evidence that Amy posed a threat to anybody, and in any case, Rachel knew nothing about Amy's situation to be making such a judgment. Second, if that was really the case, Rachel should have addressed her concerns to the store owner. I will note that this store owner and his wife were always very kind to Amy, but at other times, she has had difficulty finding work because of her medical history. Third, every description I was given of the cruelty and derision that Rachel and her friend inflicted on Amy, while she was tearfully telling them to stop it and leave her alone, makes it clear to me that their sole motivation was to get a sick thrill out of harassing a defenseless person and driving her to tears.

    If Rachel thought that making that argument was going to help, she was very, very wrong. I quietly suggested that Rachel quit while she was behind, and leave. Everybody who knew Sean knew that he would never hit a girl, no matter how angry she made him. I, on the other hand, had no such issue, and Rachel had me teetering on the precipice.

    There was so much pain in this, but one thing made it all almost worthwhile. I vividly remember the warmth, affection, and gratitude with which Amy cried and hugged Sean when she found out how he had stood up for her.

    (Amy is now a writer and artist, living in Connecticut. A few months ago, she and her boyfriend announced their engagement, to much tears and applause.)


    What does it say about Paul, that at the age of 16, he refused the advances of a beautiful 26-year-old woman? What does it say about Sean, that at the age of 18, he rejected a beautiful girl who very much wanted to be with him?

    To some people, it seems, a "real man" would never pass up such a chance. Well, Paul refused the advances of a beautiful woman because he cared too much about me to break my heart by cheating on me, and Sean rejected a beautiful girl when he found out how horribly she had treated somebody he cares about. If that isn't what a real man would do, then I don't want a real man in my life.

    As for the more prevalent idea that a guy who rejects an attractive girl must be gay, I have to say ... If either one of these two gentlemen is gay, then he certainly hid it very well, especially when he was alone with me.

    ... Um, I'm sorry, did I just share too much?


    You know, you can tell me that the "Comments" sections for sites like YouTube are havens for trolls and jackasses, and you'd be correct. But you can't tell me that the statements I quoted about this video don't reflect the attitudes of society at large. Nor is it just "a guy thing." Most of those comments were likely written by men, but not all of them. I can say from my real life experience that women can be every bit as prejudiced and as cruel on this as men can. Sometimes more.

    Women spend just as much time as men perpetuating the stereotype that men in general, and teenaged boys in particular, care only about sex. I have dealt with women who insist that it simply doesn't happen that women sexually harass or assault men, and the idea that it does is nothing more than a misogynistic myth. I have heard women openly say that it would be a good thing for a man to be sexually harassed so that he'd understand what women have to deal with.

    It just makes me sick to my stomach.

    Yes, I do have a personal stake in this, and Paul and Amy, I am grateful to you both for consenting to let me share your stories. (I do realize that the latter story speaks more to the prejudice faced by people living with mental illness. That's a separate issue, one that I also care very deeply about, and obviously also have a personal stake in. Amy's illness wasn't even that visible most of the time. It pains me to think of what it must be like for people whose illnesses are more noticeable.)

    It just makes me so angry to see people (of both genders) belittling men, their emotions, and their values. Because heaven forbid that society could ever accept that some men, even as teenaged boys, just might have some motivations in their minds and hearts that are more important to them than sex, that people could have a little more respect for men and boys than to believe that they couldn't ... or that we could show more compassion than to belittle those teenaged boys who would dare to even want to say "no," or those who would choose to say "yes" and later regret it.

    ... Well, thank you for listening to me. If you've managed to stay with me for this entire long post, I appreciate your bearing with me.

    Now, if you'll excuse me, my husband is coming home soon, and I really need to hug him for a while.
    I consider myself a "theoretical feminist." That is, in pure theory, feminism is the belief that men and women should be treated equally, a belief that I certainly share. To what extent I would support feminism in its actual, existing form is a separate matter.

    Comment


    • #3
      We have a horrible double standard when it comes to sex for men and women. But not being able to say "no" to sex is probably one of the worst myths of all for men. Cracked had an article on it recently: http://www.cracked.com/personal-expe...rostitute.html
      I has a blog!

      Comment


      • #4
        To be honest, with regards the comments, it's worth pointing out that commentators on the internet rarely realize exactly what someone is feeling in a situation. For example, with the 15-year old boy, they see a kid refusing sex with an attractive girl- ignoring the fact that a) he presumably actually does want help with his maths b) could easily have a girlfriend c) might plain simply not be attracted to the tutor in question. ( which ALSO explains why less people intervened when it appeared the attraction was mutual- it makes it far less clear if it was a tutor taking advantage of their student, or an older girlfriend helping her boyfriend. That indecision mean that the average person is not going to want to risk embarassment by intervening.)


        as for Paul and Sean- it's a simple case of both boys caring about more than just sex
        - which, to my mind, is more then being "Ream Men" than someone who would either cheat on their girlfriend, or, in Sean's case, go out with someone who they knew could be a complete bitch. ( if nothing else, is a woman who would treat someone with a CONTROLLED mental illness like that really going to be a good mother?)

        Comment


        • #5
          I really think these people are more confused as to why someone would turn down a hot chick like that (And the show you are talking about is What Would You Do?. Fantastic at pointing out how horrible society is).
          Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else. The contrary opinion that violence doesn't solve anything is merely wishful thinking at its worst. - Starship Troopers

          Comment


          • #6
            I personally hate statements like "If you were a REAL man" or "I'm going to have to revoke your man card." I have to restrain the urge to high five someone's face when I hear them say that. As a matter of fact, I told my older brother that I would break every bone in his body the next time he told me to "be a man." So far he hasn't tested me on that.

            It's this simple. A real man takes care of himself to the best of his ability, strives to do the right thing, and strives to be fair. I would probably tell a "hot woman" no right now, because I don't trust her as far as I can throw her. Women have two strikes against them right of the bat with me anyways.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Greenday View Post
              And the show you are talking about is What Would You Do?
              Thank you!

              That was driving me crazy ... so to speak.

              (No offense, Amy. )
              I consider myself a "theoretical feminist." That is, in pure theory, feminism is the belief that men and women should be treated equally, a belief that I certainly share. To what extent I would support feminism in its actual, existing form is a separate matter.

              Comment


              • #8
                Here is the segment in question for reference.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Gravekeeper View Post
                  Thank you very much for that, too.
                  I consider myself a "theoretical feminist." That is, in pure theory, feminism is the belief that men and women should be treated equally, a belief that I certainly share. To what extent I would support feminism in its actual, existing form is a separate matter.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This is actually a perfect example of how ingrained patriarchy harms men too.

                    quick explanation here(powerpoint-web-based)

                    And this one goes a bit more in depth(your stories are covered in #3)
                    Registered rider scenic shore 150 charity ride

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I thought about this last night and realized that the reason it took people so long to do something is because men are expected to be able to take care of themselves, so when they're put in a vulnerable situation, it can be confusing. It seems contradictory to how many were raised and people have to figure it out before they realize they need to do something.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Lindsay B. - I think judging society attitudes or general opinion on comments on the internet is a little counter-productive. Some people are awful people and start making awful comments, a lot of sensible people stop answering (don't feed the trolls). Some people who don't necessarily believe what they are saying will respond in kind for reasons I don't fully understand, but I expect it has to do with feeling like ineffectual little worms in their real life and wanted to feel like they are exercising some control over others without fear of consequence, and maybe to feel like they belong to a group (of awful people?) So in un-moderated or loosely moderated places on the net you end up with mostly awful comments, and possibly attempts at rebuttal by people who don't have the emotional stability to let things go when there is no way to effect change or do anything but escalate the awfulness.

                        I agree with your premise that men and boys have just as much right to say no to advances as females do, I just don't agree with your conclusion that in general society disagrees with your premise. Even in your essay all of your examples from real life, and also from the WWYD segments would tend to be more reflective of society's opinions or general attitude, a mix of people who: are strongly for standing up for anyone who needs help exerting their independence over their own body and mind; indifferent to what's going on around them; go out of their way to make others feel bad about themselves; don't really know what to do or how to respond when something is not as it should be. It's only on the internet comments section, with all it's inherent problems, that your conclusion about society general ideals is supported.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Just a few small observations ...

                          A curious thing about Amy (that's not her real name, I'm using the pseudonym Lindsay chose for her) :

                          When Lindsay asked Amy if it would be all right to share her story, Amy was worried that people here would think that the story was made up.

                          Amy was concerned that the members of this forum wouldn't believe that somebody could be so awful to a random stranger for no real reason ...

                          ...

                          ...

                          ...

                          I asked Amy if she had ever visited Fratching!'s parent website, .

                          "Trust me," I told her. "The folks on this forum will have NO difficulty at all believing that there are people in the world who can really be that horrible."


                          Originally posted by Lindsay B. View Post
                          I actually found out later that Sean had been nursing a crush on me ever since we first met, but he kept it to himself because, he explained, he could tell from talking to me that it was too soon after my breakup with Paul. I can't imagine what I could have done to give Sean that impression.
                          Here's a hint :

                          When you meet a guy for the first time and he compliments you on the locket you're wearing ... and you respond by telling him all about how your former boyfriend, who you just broke up with a few months earlier because he was going to college in another state, gave it to you for your one-year anniversary and you've worn it ever since ... Certain conclusions will be reached.

                          I know, hindsight is always 20/20, and it doesn't really matter now that you and Sean are married, I'm just sayin' ...


                          Originally posted by Lindsay B. View Post
                          What does it say about Sean, that at the age of 18, he rejected a beautiful girl who very much wanted to be with him?
                          Honestly, I think that most people probably wouldn't fault a guy who stopped dating a girl, no matter how beautiful she is, if she had behaved as despicably as Rachel did.


                          Originally posted by NecCat View Post
                          I agree with your premise that men and boys have just as much right to say no to advances as females do, I just don't agree with your conclusion that in general society disagrees with your premise.
                          I think that Lindsay may have overstated her case, because - and I say this with all due respect to my friend - this subject hits a little too close to home for her. I have always told Lindsay this.

                          With that said, I don't think that Lindsay was so much saying that society as a whole is dismissive of a man's right to refuse an advance, as she was saying that the attitude is far more prevalent than it should be (which, ideally, is to say that it shouldn't exist at all, but that's pretty much a pipe dream for virtually any social ill).

                          In other words, Lindsay was really just speaking out against a social ill, no different from when people speak out against misogyny, racism, or homophobia.

                          I will say this : Expressing a belief and acting on it are two different things.

                          Out of all of those people who speak so dismissively of a man's right to refuse an advance, I am willing to bet that at least some of them would - if they actually found themselves face-to-face with the situation - would take action to help him, or at least sympathize with him.

                          Of course, as Lindsay said, by speaking so dismissively of the matter, these people are significantly contributing to the problem, even if they themselves would actually act differently if they saw it happening.

                          One thing I am fairly certain of, though :

                          When somebody disagrees with you in a debate forum, your natural reaction, as a rule, is to want to defend your position. In this case, though ...

                          NecCat, when you assert that, contrary to what Lindsay was suggesting, that society as a whole is not dismissive of a man's right to refuse an advance ... I can safely say that Lindsay's reaction would be to fervently hope that you are right.
                          "Well, the good news is that no matter who wins, you all lose."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by BlaqueKatt View Post
                            This is actually a perfect example of how ingrained patriarchy harms men too.

                            quick explanation here(powerpoint-web-based)

                            And this one goes a bit more in depth(your stories are covered in #3)
                            Would a matriarchy be better? I don't think I've seen it in action in the developed countries where we use the universal "he", so I wouldn't know.

                            Though I do like the gender-neutral pronouns like "hir" and "ze" and would like to see more of them in the future.
                            Last edited by cindybubbles; 05-09-2015, 08:00 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Here's an idea, since I like poking around Anglo-Saxon and Middle English.
                              Originally posted by Dennis Baron, "Grammar and Gender"
                              In 1789, William H. Marshall records the existence of a dialectal English epicene pronoun, singular "ou": "'Ou will' expresses either he will, she will, or it will." Marshall traces "ou" to Middle English epicene "a", used by the 14th century English writer John of Trevisa, and both the OED and Wright's English Dialect Dictionary confirm the use of "a" for he, she, it, they, and even I. This "a" is a reduced form of the Anglo-Saxon he = "he" and heo = "she".
                              "I take it your health insurance doesn't cover acts of pussy."

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X