Josh Duggar incident

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

May I missed it, but I haven't noticed any threads on this yet here in Fratching and I've been curious what you folks think of the situation.

Personally, it upsets me because of the across the board failures. He failed to act properly in the first place, his parents failed to respond correctly when he told them and it seems at least two of his sisters/victims failed to properly understand what had happened to them.

I also think some in the media have failed by either presenting certain facets of the case incorrectly or inappropriately defending the family.

[Tama]

I'm going to guess that the girls were coached..

[Aragarthiel]

I'm really just tired of hearing about them. With that many kids, it was only a matter of time until a major scandal like this occurred. Something bad was going to happen, whether it was a drug overdose, an affair, or someone disowning the family completely. This is just the way it turned out.

[mathnerd]

I'm probably going to get flayed alive, but I don't blame Josh much, if at all. The religion in which he was raised attempts to deny natural biology and deprived of reasonable information. It also teaches kids that boys are not responsible for their lustful thoughts and actions, and if they have them, it's the girls' faults for not being modest enough. I think he was a curious 15 year old boy, and not a sexual predator.

On top of that, his parents, ultimately, were the ones who are responsible for his actions. They are also responsible for what happened in the aftermath.

Lastly, I'm disgusted by the media who jumped to publish records that should have been destroyed. There's a reason juvenile records are sealed, and somebody had an axe to grind and used those records to create this controversy. Whether or not we agree with how things were handled, the fact remains that Josh Dugger has the same right to the privacy of his juvenile records as the rest of us who screw up when we're kids.

[Greenday]

This is what happens when you brainwash people with insanity.

[cewfa]

I'm probably going to get flayed alive, but I don't blame Josh much, if at all. The religion in which he was raised attempts to deny natural biology and deprived of reasonable information. It also teaches kids that boys are not responsible for their lustful thoughts and actions, and if they have them, it's the girls' faults for not being modest enough. I think he was a curious 15 year old boy, and not a sexual predator.

This has been my theory for the last 15 years of being involved in the religious community. Xtians tend to deprive themselves sexually and fail to realize that it is God that gave us those urges by virtue of being born and being a human being. Sex is not an icky, sinful behavior, nor is it a bad thing. God commands us to be fruitful and multiply and we all know how that is done. When we repress ourselves from a natural, God given function, then bad things happen, such as this.

However, having said that, I will vehemently disagree with the statement that he was just a curious 15 year old boy and not a sexual predator. I was once a curious 15 year old little boy and I did what every other "normal" (what is normal, anyway?) functioning 15 year old boy did and I looked at porn (when I could without getting caught) and I masturbated. I did not grope my sister or any other girls. I will agree that the Duggars mishandled that situation BADLY, but I also believe that he knew what he was doing was wrong.

I send prayers of healing to the Duggar family, having been in an abusive situation at times as a kid, it is going to take them a lot of therapy and prayer to get past this.

[TheHuckster]

However, having said that, I will vehemently disagree with the statement that he was just a curious 15 year old boy and not a sexual predator. I was once a curious 15 year old little boy and I did what every other "normal" (what is normal, anyway?) functioning 15 year old boy did and I looked at porn (when I could without getting caught) and I masturbated.

Given what kind of sex education this family had (or lack thereof) I wouldn't be surprised if he was so sheltered from everything that he didn't even know what he was touching. He just knew tingly feelings came to him when he thought about it, and wanted to investigate further.

Josh was the first child in that family to reach adolescence, and as such he had no older siblings to tell him about what was happening to his body, and thus had to rely on his parents' teaching... and you can imagine what kind of twisted teaching they gave him.

Not that this is any sort of defense of Josh. I just think the whole family suppressed everything about sex so much that... well, if they weren't going to tell him what's between a female's legs, he's going to find out for himself.

[mathnerd]

However, having said that, I will vehemently disagree with the statement that he was just a curious 15 year old boy and not a sexual predator. I was once a curious 15 year old little boy and I did what every other "normal" (what is normal, anyway?) functioning 15 year old boy did and I looked at porn (when I could without getting caught) and I masturbated. I did not grope my sister or any other girls. I will agree that the Duggars mishandled that situation BADLY, but I also believe that he knew what he was doing was wrong.

You're missing the point of what I said. I said in the context of the the family's fringe beliefs he didn't know what he was doing was wrong. He was deprived of any and all information regarding healthy sexuality and told that any lustful thoughts on his part were the fault of the girl who made him think that way. Look up what ATI/Quiverfull teaches about these things. It's horrifying. He was brainwashed to believe that way. If he'd had appropriate sex education and an appropriate outlet (porn, girlie magazines, hell, just oogling bikini clad girls at the beach), both of which were denied to him, I don't think this would have ever happened.

[cewfa]

I get exactly what you are saying. Yes, if he had had those things, he could have had a healthy sex life, and yes his parents were abusive in their upbringing of him. However, that does not absolve him of wrongdoing. He knew what he did was wrong, and he should have been handed down the same consequences that everyone else gets in that situation. Just because he was abused, and yes I consider the way they raise their kids to be abusive, does not absolve him from wrongdoing when he abuses someone. The Duggar girls' statements prove that they were abused as children.

I don't need to read up on the "quiverfull/ATI" nonsense, because I have witnessed variants of it firsthand over the last 15 years, and I have watched the show periodically. The "quiverfull" movement is just a flavor of the many false teachings these quasi-christian people come up with. I don't claim to know the Bible inside and out, but based on my own studies, a lot of these people are either willfully teaching false doctrine or are very misguided in what they believe. This, however, is neither here nor there pertaining to this thread.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

I guess my question is;

If his parents taught him that it was all the girl's fault for making him feel that way, and not his own, then how would he know that his actions were wrong and not also the fault of the girl who made him feel that way?

How is he supposed to know that it's wrong? Just because it is? We learn a lot of our morals from our parents, and if they don't teach him it's wrong, then how is he supposed to know it is?

[cewfa]

If he didn't know it was wrong in the first place, he wouldn't have come out and said that he was wrong when this story broke. He would have instead deflected this and said that either he didn't do anything wrong, or he would have said it was the girls' fault. As a matter of fact, this article proves he knows what he did was wrong: http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/21/us/jos...n-allegations/

Hitting the highlights of this article, Mr. Duggar is quoted himself as saying that he acted inexcusably, and that he confessed this to his parents who took (incorrect) steps to address this situation. He has also resigned from his position at Family Research Council. I believe I also read in another article that he had confessed this particular incident to his wife before they were married, but a google search seems to have come up empty, so I could be mistaken on that one.

What is really important here is that the Duggar sisters really need some counseling. Their statements in all of this show a classic definition of Stockholm Syndrome. It really is sad, and I hope that they get the help they need.

ETA: By putting incorrect in parentheses, I am referring to the stories I read where he was merely sent to Little Rock to do physical labor, and the State Trooper who was covered it up, being convicted of child pornography himself.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

Yes, he's saying that now. He knows now that it is inexcusable and that it was wrong to do.

I'm wondering what his answer would be if he had been found out at the time of it occurring. He's 27 now, twelve years later.

[cewfa]

"I confessed this to my parents who took several steps to help me address the situation. We spoke with the authorities where I confessed my wrongdoing and my parents arranged for me and those affected by my actions to receive counseling."

This is straight from the article I posted two posts ago. By the way I read that, he was talking about the circumstances as they were 12 years ago, therefore he knew what he did was wrong then. Whether or not they actually got counseling, who is to say, but I have my doubts based on the way the sisters have reacted.

I have said it before, and I will say it again. He, along with his 18 siblings, were abused by their parents as children. Quiverfull is nothing more than a quasi-Christian brainwashing. From accounts I have heard from this and other message boards I have read, and articles I have read about the family, the older siblings raise the kids, not mom and dad. Mom and Dad took on this teaching when they lost their first child in a miscarriage. Everyone involved needs psychological help, from Mr. and Mrs. Duggar down to each of the children. However, just because one is abused by someone doesn't make it all right from them to abuse other people.

I personally commend Mr. (Josh) Duggar for taking personal responsibility for his actions. A lot of people don't, and a lot of people mitigate their own wrongdoing and then try to excuse it away. I also pray for this family that they all get the help they need and become stronger people.

[jedimaster91]

This has been my theory for the last 15 years of being involved in the religious community. Xtians tend to deprive themselves sexually and fail to realize that it is God that gave us those urges by virtue of being born and being a human being. Sex is not an icky, sinful behavior, nor is it a bad thing. God commands us to be fruitful and multiply and we all know how that is done. When we repress ourselves from a natural, God given function, then bad things happen, such as this.

I look at it more as proper time and place just like everything else. And my beliefs teach that proper time and place to be within the bonds of marriage. Though I will not deny a lot of people raised this way have....issues.....when it comes to sex. It ranges from a discomfort all the way up to incidents like this. I wish that parents and religious leaders were better about saying you are given these urges and feelings for a reason and there's nothing to be ashamed of, but it takes self discipline to remember proper time and place (whatever you may define proper time and place to be).

As far as the Duggars are concerned, if he got treatment and hasn't done it since, and if the girls got counselling (which is doubtful), I really feel it's a non-issue and already been handled. However, if the abuse was an ongoing thing with no repercussions, he needs to be charged and put on trial. Whomever it was that released a sealed juvie record also needs to be charged.

[cewfa]

All right, let me ask you a question, actually I have a couple of questions, but I'll start with this one. What if all of sudden pooping was a sin before you were married? What do you think would happen? A baby would be a sinner within the first couple of minutes of life, and then the possibility that we would die, because you know, poop is toxic. When you put it that way, it is ridiculous on its face. Of course pooping is not a sin, because it is a biological function. So is sex. Sex is a biological need, and when that is repressed, bad things happen. Granted, a lack of sex won't kill you, but the point still remains.

My second question is how did couples in the olden days reconcile their sex life with God before official governments got involved? All is a wedding truly is a ceremony to prove that you are married to your family and friends, and a legally binding contract.