Charleston shooting

[TheHuckster]

But doesn't that send the wrong kind of message that if he had done the exact same crime...but against white people (like let's say he was a fundamentalist Christian who shot up a Catholic church congregation...yes that discrimination occurred too) that it means it's not quite that big a deal? Motivation for murder comes in all different forms and whether there was a racial element or not, he will pay the price either with the needle or life in prison (I don't know off the top of my head if SC has the death penalty). It sadly won't bring back the innocent lives he took away though.

If you want to reduce the murder rate, you need to look at the causes and motives. In a hypothetical world where there was no racism, this murder would have never happened. If you reduce the rate of people who believe in white supremacy, these types of crimes will also be reduced. So, the motivation for murder is absolutely a relevant discussion.

The same is true for gang violence, domestic violence and other motivations for murder. You need to discuss how to reduce those motivations, which require a different solution than reducing white supremacy.

[Greenday]

I'm curious how people actually suggest we eliminate racism? For thousands of years, people have killed each other because they look different or they speak different languages. We've come a long way in America and while there's still a way to go, what more can we actually do? I mean, in 2015, it's widely unacceptable and it still happens.

It just feels like every time there's an attack like his where it's blatantly motivated by racism, all I hear about is how horrible white people are to black people and as a white person who doesn't give a crap about the color of someone's skin, it feels like I'm being unfairly lumped in with the problem. Maybe that's what Estil was trying to get at and was unable to convey. But it just feels like racism is thrown back at white people (By both black and white people) and I'm not sure what they are trying to accomplish with that.

[Kheldarson]

Are we supposed to give up just because it's hard? Not all folk are treated equally because of race, gender, sexuality, etc. Are we supposed to just ignore the issues because "this is the best we're going to get"?

[Gravekeeper]

It just feels like every time there's an attack like his where it's blatantly motivated by racism, all I hear about is how horrible white people are to black people and as a white person who doesn't give a crap about the color of someone's skin, it feels like I'm being unfairly lumped in with the problem.

Are you a violent white supremacist? No? Then why would you feel unfairly lumped in?

Maybe that's what Estil was trying to get at and was unable to convey.

No, Estil seems to be around to basically convey why no one should take Fox News seriously. >.>

[Greenday]

Are we supposed to give up just because it's hard? Not all folk are treated equally because of race, gender, sexuality, etc. Are we supposed to just ignore the issues because "this is the best we're going to get"?

I didn't say that. I'm just curious how people think we should attempt to circumvent human nature.

Are you a violent white supremacist? No? Then why would you feel unfairly lumped in?

I'm not a white supremacist. And I just do. I hear too many generalizations about white people. Am I not part of society? Am I not white? Any time someone goes and says society is messed up or white people are ignorant of what black people have to go through in this country, are the groups I belong to not being attacked themselves?

[Estil]

I'm curious how people actually suggest we eliminate racism? For thousands of years, people have killed each other because they look different or they speak different languages. We've come a long way in America and while there's still a way to go, what more can we actually do? I mean, in 2015, it's widely unacceptable and it still happens.

It just feels like every time there's an attack like his where it's blatantly motivated by racism, all I hear about is how horrible white people are to black people and as a white person who doesn't give a crap about the color of someone's skin, it feels like I'm being unfairly lumped in with the problem. Maybe that's what Estil was trying to get at and was unable to convey. But it just feels like racism is thrown back at white people (By both black and white people) and I'm not sure what they are trying to accomplish with that.

It has been awhile since I've been on any kind of political forum regularly so yeah I am a bit rusty. All I was trying to say is I think there is way too big of a rush to assume that anytime there is a white on black crime, it MUST be because the white person had a problem with the black victim's race. After all, look what happened with the Duke Lacross case as well as the recent Ferguson case when some people rushed to judge the lacross players and Darren Wilson respectively as a bunch of rotten evil racists. And as it turned out the lacrosse players did nothing wrong (but their lives ended up ruined and those who faned the mob justice flames, including some of the Duke faculty, didn't even apologize to them) and Officer Wilson most likely did the only thing he could do given the circumstances and the split second call he was forced to make (and the media/celebrities who insisted on treating Michael Brown as some kind of heroic martyr was disgusting). I am just very concerned that the past few decades or so "racism/racist" is becoming the new McCarthyism. Where the label is hurled around way too easily. True the Charleston killer is indeed racist to the core but it was when he murdered innocent people (in a church no less, which is supposed to be a sanctuary of peace and non-violence) that he stepped beyond his personal beliefs. All I'm saying is that the focus should be that he murdered innocent people, not what skin color/ethnicity/etc they happened to be.

And Gravekeeper, I'm around because I've heard all about Fratching at the CS forums and decided to give it a shot. And frankly I think we do need some balance here in terms of different viewpoints and there doesn't seem to be a lot of fellow conservatives/libertarians/pro-lifers around here.

[Gravekeeper]

Any time someone goes and says society is messed up or white people are ignorant of what black people have to go through in this country, are the groups I belong to not being attacked themselves?

....No? If you think that qualifies as an "attack" on your "group" you might be a tad too sensitive on the subject. Those sound more like generalizations or observations born of frustration to me, and really, is either one demonstrably false?

Officer Wilson most likely did the only thing he could do given the circumstances and the split second call he was forced to make (and the media/celebrities who insisted on treating Michael Brown as some kind of heroic martyr was disgusting)

Ugh, you're really going to go there on Ferguson too? And wtf with media treating Brown as some kind of heroic matyr? There was a mad scramble to find reasons for why he deserved to die. Which is typically how it goes whenever an unarmed black person is shot.

All I'm saying is that the focus should be that he murdered innocent people, not what skin color/ethnicity/etc they happened to be.

Dude wrote a 2444 page racist manifesto and wanted to start a race war. He wanted segregation back. He wanted to kill black people because they were black. How the fark do you suggest that not be the focus? Never mind that what you're suggesting is saying we shouldn't focus on the motive or cause of this tragedy. Only that it occurred. Which is contrary not only to how the whole justice system works but also problem solving in general.

And that's the thing. This is a god damn problem in the US and it will keep being a problem as long as people keep finding bullshit reasons to try and not focus on the cause of it.

And frankly I think we do need some balance here in terms of different viewpoints and there doesn't seem to be a lot of fellow conservatives/libertarians/pro-lifers around here.

You can occupy a different viewpoint without being a biased arse about it and just repeating whatever shit Fox News tells you. I would welcome genuine conservative viewpoints here for discussion. But all you've done so far is repeat the same sort of shit I see the bobble heads on America TV yammer about and in a similarly insulting manner.

[Estil]

I'd love to hear some examples of what you define as "genuine conservative viewpoints here for discussion".

[Gravekeeper]

I'd love to hear some examples of what you define as "genuine conservative viewpoints here for discussion".

Try ones with a factual basis that do not begin or end with a backhanded phrases such as:

so-called tolerant progressive open minded left

While I certainly don't believe Obama is any kind of bad guy or has any real malicious intent (good luck getting most of the left back during the Bush years to concede that point)

My point being is that for people who traditionally are supposed to be the ones championing tolerance, diversity, open mindness for all, they sure do often seem to be very nasty and intolerant towards those who are not fellow liberals.

To quote a few of your recent ones.

This is a debate and discussion site, not a guest panel on Sean Hannity.

[Kheldarson]

I didn't say that. I'm just curious how people think we should attempt to circumvent human nature.

I think we're doing it. We talk, discuss, point it out, call it out. We make people mindful of it and remind them how divisive it is. And then we keep trying.

[s_stabeler]

Re: racism being human nature, I'm not sure ti entirely is. why? because I've noticed that among younger people, racism is far less common- indeed, it's in situations where people play up the differences between white and black people- IOW, it's more like a learned behavior. And learned behaviors can be unlearned.

[Kheldarson]

It's more tribalism is human nature. Look at high school: you find "your" people and stick with them and defend them. Racism, sexism, etc is more systematic.

[Greenday]

It's more tribalism is human nature. Look at high school: you find "your" people and stick with them and defend them. Racism, sexism, etc is more systematic.

Exactly. We don't like people who are different (usually). Ask most white kids if black people are bad and most likely they'll all say no. Stick those white kids in a room full of black people and see uncomfortable they suddenly become even though they have no reason to believe they are bad people. Interchange any of the races. Being different makes people nervous and uneasy.

I think we're doing it. We talk, discuss, point it out, call it out. We make people mindful of it and remind them how divisive it is. And then we keep trying.

Are we? Every time an opposing viewpoint is made, there's no thoughtful response. Just look at this thread. Our opinions aren't thoughtfully discussed. They are called backhanded, told we are too sensitive, biased arses, intolerant, ridiculous. And I see it all the time in threads where I disagree with the crowd. You can't have a conservative belief with being accused of being a Fox News kool aid drinker.

[NecCat]

I'm curious how people actually suggest we eliminate racism?

By noticing problems, by being aware of them, acknowledging them, discussing them and by wanting to fix them.
Ex. I read an article this morning at breakfast that said there was a huge increase in deaths from car vs train collisions in the last year and that Google, Apple etc maps were working with some American transportation department to have all train crossing noted in the American maps soon. On my drive to work this morning I drove over the same 4 train crossings I always do, but I did more than glance at lights, just in case. I was more aware of a problem and tried, in some small way, to help solve it.

It just feels like every time there's an attack like his where it's blatantly motivated by racism, all I hear about is how horrible white people are to black people and as a white person who doesn't give a crap about the color of someone's skin, it feels like I'm being unfairly lumped in with the problem.

If all it makes you feel is guilty, or defensive then you are really missing the point, because It's not about you (you, random white dude, not you, personally Greenday). Systematic oppression is not about you, unless you are personally oppressing people or are the oppressed. Think of the pain experienced by the family of someone who was killed in this church, because their skin was the wrong colour. They were born that way, they personally may have been the best person ever, and they were murdered, on purpose, by someone who hated them for something they were born with.

Multiply by the amount of times a year the same thing happens on this continent. But despite their pain, the suffering, and the fact that they have to live every day knowing it's going to keep happening, it makes you feel bad to focus on it, so we probably shouldn't? White guilt victimizing actually makes me angry, (we get that a lot here in respect to natives) it feels like an excuse to keep the status quo, 'well I personally didn't do anything wrong, so why should I work to change it? I didn't steal anyone's land/own a slave/refuse to hire a (ethnicity) person, why should I feel bad?' If the people who are oppressed can't change things, and the people with the privilege feel like they shouldn't have to, nothing will change. If everyone who felt guilty would decide to feel compassionate instead, maybe we could work on fixing some of the problems.

[HYHYBT]

So say we can't eliminate racism, at least not in the immediate future. There are still plenty of opportunities for reducing its power, degree, and spread, which provides a better starting point for next time around.