Rational response to controversial symbols in media turns into insanity

[Estil]

(as I originally posted over at Bernard Goldberg's forum)

Why does the state governments involved need to endorse one viewpoint or another? IOW, why does SC and MS need the Confederate symbol on their flag/grounds? Wouldn't it be better for those who are into the flag (which for the record is not even the real Confederate national flag, it's only the "battle/naval" flag) to simply fly it on their private property or bumper stickers on their vehicles and such if it means that much to them for whatever reason (and the same goes for those who are against it...they are more than welcome to put stickers and such on their vehicle of how terrible and racist they believe it is). If this sounds a lot like the separation of church and state issue, they are kinda similar if you think about it.

I think it is likely that SC and MS will indeed take down the Confederate battle flag not because of any kind of racism issues exactly, but it's just kinda silly to appear like your government's allegiance is with some rebel wannabe country from over 150 years ago and not where the allegiance truly belongs...the US flag/constitution. After just like how (contrary to popular belief) no one really "took God out of public schools" (people still say "Under God" in the Pledge (and those who don't believe in God can choose to omit that part), students can still do after school religious sorts of clubs and prayers on their own time, they can still say grace before eating lunch, read Bible on their own time, and so on). Thus by that same token, we don't need any governments appearing like they take any sort of stand one way or the other with the Confederate battle flag. Let the individual citizens continue to choose one way or the other on their own private property just as they always have, and let the museums and historians do all that Confederate heritage stuff (the good, the bad, the ugly).

Reasonable enough solution, right?

[Estil]

They're removing the flag from the Dukes of Hazzard too.

Not exactly. I mean prior to Warner Bros' announcement did anyone even notice one way or the other if General Lee models/toys were even still made? The show, the DVDs, and the merchandise (which you can always get on Feebay) aren't going anywhere.

Not to mention the Duke family didn't even have a drop of racism in them.

[HYHYBT]

However, it is probably a good idea to make it a memorial to those who died on both sides, and fly both the Confederate and Union flags.

i haven't seen the one at the South Carolina Capitol, but the ones I've seen around here are for the people from that town that died, often listing their names. I haven't looked at it lately, but the one here is a square or rectangular piece of grass 10-20 feet on a side containing the flagpole and a monument much like an oversized gravestone. If you were building one *now,* you might well include those from both sides, but because the US Civil War was fought between geographic regions, in any one place a combined list would be pretty lopsided anyway. Especially if any who did leave to fight for the other side, or their relatives, kept quiet about it at the time.

And I'm not even entirely sure what flag's on it now. They seem to rotate them; within the last year or so, I've noticed at least two different ones, and there may have been others. It's in one of those spots you pass by all the time but mostly don't notice.

[Andara Bledin]

And I'm not even entirely sure what flag's on it now. They seem to rotate them; within the last year or so, I've noticed at least two different ones, and there may have been others. It's in one of those spots you pass by all the time but mostly don't notice.

Either way, you wouldn't have the battle flag over a war memorial, anyway. You'd have the Stars & Bars, the actual flag of the Confederacy.

It's worth noting that the battle flag in modern times was raised or incorporated as a protest against desegregation in schools. So, yeah, the thing is still about racism and xenophobia.

[Hyena Dandy]

Either way, you wouldn't have the battle flag over a war memorial, anyway. You'd have the Stars & Bars, the actual flag of the Confederacy.

I'd think you'd use the Bloodstained Banner rather than the Stars & Bars. Just for the sake of it being clear what it's for, and also since by the end of the war, that was the flag of the confederacy.

Also, the red stripe was meant to memorialize the dead. So having it in a memorial would make sense. Along with that being the one the war ended under, instead of starting.

You're absolutely right, though. The Rebel Flag was popularized by racist sentiment, and used to support racist sentiment. It wasn't about history when it started going up. Its popularity is only a result of racism. Whatever it means now, that's where it started.

I have further thoughts I'm too tired to explain.

[Gravekeeper]

It's already been done with other "controversial" items in the modeling world. You can't even get WWII-era armor or aircraft kits with full swastikas on the decal sheet. Usually, those emblems are cut into four L-shaped pieces (which are a bitch to align), or left out totally. I don't know about anyone else, but the sight of a Messerschmitt BF 109 without a swastika on the tail looks a bit odd.

I had to go look to even notice where it was or that it was even missing so might be just you, heh. When I think WW II German air force I think of the Luftwaffe black cross on the wings. That was a far more prominent symbol on them.

As for the history on that, you have to remember displaying the Swastika is straight up illegal in some places in Europe ( especially Germany ) and one of the bigger model kit makers is based in, you guessed it, Germany. The emblems are cut into the 4 pieces because it sidesteps the wording of the law and allows it to *technically* be legal for sale.

Its not a matter of controversy, oddly, its good ol' fashion capitalism. Why make two versions of the same model kit just to appease a much smaller market. When you can make one kit, sans swastika, that can be sold internationally to the widest market without any legal concerns.

[Estil]

(double post sorry)

[Estil]

Either way, you wouldn't have the battle flag over a war memorial, anyway. You'd have the Stars & Bars, the actual flag of the Confederacy.

I too found that a bit odd. Let's just say if Southern people back then flew their flag on their front porch it would be the Stars and Bars (and the two flags that came later; forget their names) rather than what was really the battle/naval jack. It'd basically be like seeing only the blue field/white stars of the US flag on front porches and whatnot and not the red/white stripes. That'd look kinda silly no?

[Hyena Dandy]

I just mentioned them. #2 was Stainless banner, #3 is Bloodstained Banner.

The Bonnie Blue Flag could be considered #0, as well, having been flown prior to the adoption of a national flag.

The Stainless and Bloodstained are basically like putting the rebel flag where the field of stars is, and leaving the rest white (Stainless) or white, then a vertical red line on the far right (Bloodstained.)

Bonnie Blue is a blue field with a white star.

[s_stabeler]

I too found that a bit odd. Let's just say if Southern people back then flew their flag on their front porch it would be the Stars and Bars (and the two flags that came later; forget their names) rather than what was really the battle/naval jack. It'd basically be like seeing only the blue field/white stars of the US flag on front porches and whatnot and not the red/white stripes. That'd look kinda silly no?

which is one reason they changed the flag. It makes sense if you think about it, though, since the Civil War was fought over very few issues. (basically just slavery) which is one reason why the punishment for the defeated Confederates was comparatively light. ( IIRC, the only punishment was banning the leaders from public office & the state governments were forced to resign) when in other countries, they would probably have been executed at the time.

[jedimaster91]

the Civil War was fought over very few issues. (basically just slavery)

I seem to remember there was a fair bit about states' rights and commerce. If I'm remembering my history lessons correctly (which I might not be), the slavery issue didn't come to much prominence until fairly late in the war. Even then, the Emancipation Proclamation didn't free all the slaves; just the ones in the South.

There's a debate raging in my home state right now as to whether or not a statue of Jefferson Davis (the president of the Confederacy) should remain in the state capitol building. Which is, IMO, ridiculous. Leave it alone. The thing is solid marble so moving it might destroy it due to how massively heavy it is. And aside from that, it's a historical thing. I worry that if we start removing every reminder of the Confederacy, we're white washing our own history and that scares me. By all means, take the flag down from state buildings, but don't bury it completely.

[Kheldarson]

I seem to remember there was a fair bit about states' rights and commerce. If I'm remembering my history lessons correctly (which I might not be), the slavery issue didn't come to much prominence until fairly late in the war. Even then, the Emancipation Proclamation didn't free all the slaves; just the ones in the South.

This is true, but the issue was that the South's economy was nearly entirely driven by slavery. So when you're talking about the economy or the state's right to determine course of action at the time, it's still coming back to slavery and the slave trade.

[s_stabeler]

Nope. The South wanted to be able to demand that other states enforce slavery laws. ( indeed, the mst obviosu reason the states rights arguemnt was bullshit is that thye claimed the Federal government could not interfere with their laws on slavery, but claimed states could not override federal laws protecting slavery. Oh, and if that wasn't enough, the vice president of the o
Confederacy gave this speech: "Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition"

the States Rights argument, apart from being used mainly by apologists for the Confederacy, was only thought up in 1865, after it became unpolitic to be associated with slavery.

oh, and to make it even more clear: at every stage, the South pushed for ever more concessions from the North- ever attempting to expand slavery. Indeed, they even tried to sue so slaveholders could keep their slaves in free states- regardless of state law, and functionalyl forcing such states to allow slavery.