Sandra Bland Arrest/Suicide.

[Andara Bledin]

Could officers have killed her in her cell? It's possible, it's even plausible.

Totally anecdotal, but the local officers when I lived in Anaheim (an upscale area - same one that Tiger Woods grew up in) murdered the white trash loser who lived with his parents across the street from us while in jail. They'd beaten him so badly during the arrest that he was partially paralyzed. And yet, he still managed to use his belt to make a noose and hang himself from something on the ceiling with it... >_> Nobody was buying it, but since the guy was a waste of oxygen, nobody contested it, either. (he was in jail on that particular stint due to punching his girlfriend in the gut in an attempt to maker her miscarry)

Mouthing off while in jail nearly always gets you abused and can and sometimes does lead to getting you murdered.

[Gravekeeper]

One more minor note of fuckery: Turns out this jail has 2 cells with monitored interior cameras. For, you guessed it, prisoners they suspect might harm themselves. Prisoners with possible mental health issues are suppose to be checked on, visually, every 15 minutes.

Additionally, as soon as Bland ticked the boxes on the screening for depression/suicide etc, the jail was suppose to contact the magistrate to consult for a mental health review. Which, of course, they did not. It should also be noted that the first forms indicate depression/suicide. But a second set of forms, filled out 3 hours later, do not. Not that that changes much, as state guidelines say they were suppose to contact the magistrate after the first form.

Honestly, this has been so badly mishandled ( and began with such a clear case of an officer acting unlawfully. Also, like an asshole. ) that it doesn't really matter what the results of any follow up investigation are. The problem is so systemic that people, especially black people, have no reason to trust law enforcement at all. Especially lately when its just one dead black person after another the moment cops get anywhere near them.

It doesn't help that they started following the "blame the victim" playbook they always go for when they inadvertently kill a black person.

[Shangri-laschild]

It's like people are trying to come up with whatever excuse they can to call cops killers.

I dispatch police. They make up most of the coworkers I chat with at work. I really do hate it when people don't look at all the available facts of a police incident before crying out that the officer was in the wrong especially when they call the officer a killer. However this officer was in the wrong. Does that make him a killer? No. But it does mean that he clearly has some issues with doing his job safely without seriously escalating a situation. That is a problem that needs to be taken care of.

The people at the jail weren't following policy by not patrolling as often as they were supposed to. They didn't put her on suicide watch which is a problem. They screwed up and are heavily negligent even if it is a flat out suicide.

Maybe there isn't a conspiracy going on. Maybe there is just a lot of incompetence. Either way, there is a problem that needs to be fixed.

I can't remember if I saw this here or on my facebook wall but I remember comments about the pictures of the cell being inaccurate. The fact that there is a trash bag in the garbage can in the pictures doesn't seem all that odd to me from a regular custodial stand point. There could have been more than one bag in the can. That's how they do it where I work anyway. That would mean that there was more than one big trash bag in her cell which still is a problem but it is an argument against them tampering with the scene before taking the pictures. But again, even if all these weird things aren't tampering, they are still fairly clear signs that the policies and procedures at the jail need to be updated and properly followed.

[Greenday]

I dispatch police. They make up most of the coworkers I chat with at work. I really do hate it when people don't look at all the available facts of a police incident before crying out that the officer was in the wrong especially when they call the officer a killer. However this officer was in the wrong. Does that make him a killer? No. But it does mean that he clearly has some issues with doing his job safely without seriously escalating a situation. That is a problem that needs to be taken care of.

Well, no one here is arguing against that. Everyone here has agreed that there was no reason to get physical with her or arrest her.

Maybe there isn't a conspiracy going on. Maybe there is just a lot of incompetence. Either way, there is a problem that needs to be fixed.

And I think we can all agree on this too. But there's a huge difference between murder and bad procedures.

[s_stabeler]

there's an argument that negiligence on a bad enough level is equivalent to murder though- and since I was the person who first brought up murder, I should probably explain that was what i meant- negligence on such a scale that it more-or-less indicates you didn't care if they survived. Combined with the fact that (certainly arguably) the jail owes a duty of care to prisoners then, depending on exactly what happened ( why was the trash can there? Why were the only pictures we have taken post-mortem?) there is a case for something like murder.

Basically, was this a case of cops being incompetent, or was it a case of actual malice- i.e. where the cops, while not actually killing Blunt, deliberately placed her in a situation where she would likely commit suicide. If she was deliberately placed in such a situation, the cops should be up for murder. If not, the cops should be fired for gross incompetence.

[the_std]

there's an argument that negiligence on a bad enough level is equivalent to murder though- and since I was the person who first brought up murder, I should probably explain that was what i meant- negligence on such a scale that it more-or-less indicates you didn't care if they survived.

There's a name for what you're describing - negligent, or "depraved heart", murder.

[Shangri-laschild]

But there's a huge difference between murder and bad procedures.

Agreed but along with that, there's also a difference between bad procedures that resulted in forgetting to buy extra supplies (as an example) and bad procedures that led to someone dying when there were numerous ways that it could have been prevented. As far as I'm concerned when that many things have been screwed up and it resulted in a death, it's a lot further towards the murder end of the spectrum than it is towards the forgot to order supplies end.

[Rapscallion]

There's a name for what you're describing - negligent, or "depraved heart", murder.

If memory serves, the UK term is 'manslaughter'.

Rapscallion

[Greenday]

If memory serves, the UK term is 'manslaughter'.

Rapscallion

Pretty sure in America, you have to be the one who killed the person to commit manslaughter.

As for them having a reasonable belief that she was going to kill herself, even that's a little far fetched. She previously tried to kill herself after she lost a pregnancy the previous year. Seeing as that was situational and she was not pregnant or had not recently had the same issue, did they REALLY have any reason to believe she was about to kill herself?

I mean, saying that they should have known she was going to try to kill herself because she tried it once after a super traumatic situation (Which had nothing to do with the current situation) means we should suspect everyone who has ever tried to kill themselves will try it again. No one can get better apparently.

[the_std]

Pretty sure in America, you have to be the one who killed the person to commit manslaughter. As for them having a reasonable belief that she was going to kill herself, even that's a little far fetched. She previously tried to kill herself after she lost a pregnancy the previous year. Seeing as that was situational and she was not pregnant or had not recently had the same issue, did they REALLY have any reason to believe she was about to kill herself?

Did you miss the part where policy dictated that she be placed on a mandatory suicide watch due to her previous record, and her telling the police she was suicidal? Or how about the video-monitored cell she was supposed to be placed in, but wasn't? Or, failing that, the fact that they didn't check on her face to face like they were supposed to, AND what checking they did was not nearly as often was it was supposed to be?

Why are you defending this part? I know you have this weird cop fetish, but this is one of the parts of this situation where there was a CLEAR course of action prescribed, and the officer neglected every single piece of it.

[s_stabeler]

while you aren't wrong, Greenday, Blunt TOLD the jail she had a HISTORY of depression ( and it was Blunt that brought up her previous attempt at suicide) - even if you believe she was lying to cause a scene, THAT should be what triggered her being put on suicide watch. Blunt was more-or-less telling the jail "I'm a suicide risk" So she SHOULD have been on suicide watch. That, COMBINED with her being left alone in a cell with an abnormally large trashbag- for cells, anyway- makes me suspicious that the cops at a minimum didn't care a great deal about if she survived or not. Is it murder? probably not, HOWEVER, it really hinges on why she was put in a cell with the abnormalyl large trashbag. If they merely had a brainfart, then fair enough- though they should really lose their jobs- but if they deliberately placed a suicidal person in a cell that had mthods of suicide not normally available, it makes me suspicious.

and Rapscallion, it's not, or at least not traditional manslaughter. Manslaughter is when the intent to kill isn't there. What i was taking about was indeed "depraved heart" murder, where you more-or-less set up somebody to get killed, but don't actually kill them yourself. (to give a somewhat more blatant example than in Blunt's case, leaving a suicidal person alone with a loaded pistol.)

[Gravekeeper]

This would fall under criminally negligent homicide/manslaughter to use US legal terms I think. The problem is its a systematic failure on multiple levels by multiple people so there's no real one person to charge with anything. Multiple errors both minor and major, collectively causing a fatal one. With a larger problem being the review so far revealed a good part of it was inadequate training of the prison's staff.

Civilly, however, good luck to the prison/department defending against the civil wrongful death case.

Seeing as that was situational and she was not pregnant or had not recently had the same issue, did they REALLY have any reason to believe she was about to kill herself?

You really need to stop responding to threads before reading them, dude. >.>

[Greenday]

You really need to stop responding to threads before reading them, dude. >.>

Did she say she was suicidal at the time of being booked? NO! She said she tried to kill herself once. So either we treat everyone who's ever tried to commit suicide as permanently suicidal (Which is God damn ridiculous) or we assess them currently. It's fairly logical to say her one single suicide attempt was situational and that situation does not apply to the day she was booked so she wasn't a threat to herself. Many normal people would have made that conclusion.

[Kheldarson]

Did she say she was suicidal at the time of being booked? NO! She said she tried to kill herself once. So either we treat everyone who's ever tried to commit suicide as permanently suicidal (Which is God damn ridiculous) or we assess them currently. It's fairly logical to say her one single suicide attempt was situational and that situation does not apply to the day she was booked so she wasn't a threat to herself. Many normal people would have made that conclusion.

Except the original intake document has her answering that she's felt suicidal in the last year, been depressed, and feels that way now. Even by situational definition, that should be pegged as "needs more watching".

[Andara Bledin]

Greenday, you really need to take the cop-tinted glasses off when you wade into a thread about cops acting like assholes.

Because otherwise you end up spouting shit that is patently untrue and has been covered more than once in the very thread you're commenting in.

It's entirely predictable and rather tiresome, really.