Keyless Means Lawsuit

[catcul]

It looks like the lawyers are firing themselves up because people are dying because they are too stupid to turn off their cars the cars don't alert the drivers that the engine is still on.

I don't care if the car requires a key in the ignition or not, if you drive a car, it's YOUR responsibility to make sure the engine is shut off. I believe some of these lawyers and their clients have dollar signs in their eyes.

Class-Action Lawsuit Claims 10 Automakers Hid Keyless Ignition Carbon Monoxide Dangers That Led To 13 Deaths

Proposed Keyless Ignition Alert Rule May Have Prevented Carbon Monoxide Deaths

I mentioned A's accident in Customers Suck. An accident caused by a front axle breaking is definitely lawsuit worthy.

[HYHYBT]

That would be an awfully easy thing to do, especially with a hybrid where the engine isn't always running when the car is on. Yes, you should make sure you've turned it off, but that does not IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER remove legitimate blame from the manufacturer if the design makes it too easy to do.

[Titi]

So can they also blame the manufacturer when they lose the key (that has to be in the car when you push start) or their friend asks them not to turn off the car and because they always stop the car when they gas up? (Friend was really angry at him for stopping the car because he didn't ask for other friend to fill it up!)
Or can the gas station put in a lawsuit? I had both of these (the friend one had a manual car and pushed his car into a parking place, the other one automatic (everything locked up you could not even put it into neutral ) ended up being parked at one my gas pumps for hours. (He keeps his key in his garage and forgot to take it with him because he was just going to get gas and he could just push the button and it would start again).

[Canarr]

Honestly, this seems just... stupid.

The alleged defect occurs because consumers mistakenly believe that removing the keyless fob from the vehicle’s vicinity turns off the engine, which isn’t the case.

The suit claims that for nearly 5 million vehicles, the engine will continue to run, no matter how far away the driver and the keyless fob are from the car.

Why is it the manufacturers' responsibility what their customers "mistakenly believe"? Would the cars' user manual not show you what to do in order to turn off your engine? And could this "defect" not be "repaired" simply by issuing a statement that no, the car doesn't shut off the engine for you, you still need to do that yourself?

[jedimaster91]

Who reads owners manuals these days?

I find it hard to blame people for being confused. This is still somewhat new technology and we're not used to it yet. It wouldn't hurt for the car to have some kind of alarm that goes off if the fob gets a certain distance from the car and the engine is still on (like the one that goes off when you leave your lights on), but yeah the lawsuit is stupid.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

I don't know about anyone else, but when I got my keyless car, the dealer (I got a lease) went through everything with me.

I already understood how to turn the car on (it's a trick! You gotta have the break pressed in order for the engine to actually start) and off, but he sat me down and showed it to me anyway.

So, I don't really understand how people could be confused. What item in your life do you have that legit turns off (not just goes to sleep mode) when you get far enough away from it? Why would you assume the car would?

Keyless fobs are not magical. You go to unlock the door (like with a Prius) by touching the handle, the car sends out a little signal going "Is the keyfob in XX distance? If yes, open doors." Then when you go to turn the car on, it sends out another signal "Is the keyfob within the car? If yes, start engine."

There is no constant contact between the car and the keyfob, if there were the batteries in the keyfob would drain so darn fast.

But again, I not only talked to the dealer, and read my owner's manual, but didn't just assume that the car would magically turn off by itself because...

...well, nothing else I own (from computer, to game handhelds, to my phone) automatically turns off - not just goes to sleep. Unless the battery straight up runs out--

Oh there you go! Eventually the battery or gas will give out and then TADAH! Your car is off =P

[wolfie]

What surprises me the most is that there's a very simple technology the automakers could use (in fact, it was introduced to keep people from draining their batteries by running the starter with the ignition off) which would avoid this problem. It's called the .... ignition key. You won't get stranded due to the key being in the garage when you go out someplace because if the key isn't in the ignition the car won't start. You park the car and take out the key, the engine stops (and in the case of hybrids, won't auto-start).

[Aragarthiel]

I understand how this could cause problems for people like valets who are only in possession of a vehicle for a short amount of time. After all, wouldn't it be a surprise if you came out of a nice restaurant and found out you couldn't get home because the valet didn't turn your car off and now the battery's dead?

This really has a simple fix. The doors in most vehicles go "ding, ding, ding" if they're left open. The seatbelts do the same if the car realizes they're unbuckled. Why not make the car go "ding, ding, ding" if you accidentally leave it on?

[s_stabeler]

I can actually think of another way to do keyless entry/keyless ignition that wouldn't have the same issues with battery power, and probably COULD allow constant contact. RFID chips (the technology used for contactless cards) in the key fob- all it would require is for the car to regularly scan for keys in the vicinity while it is turned in, if it finds the correct one, the car stays on, if it doesn't, it turns itself off. (how would this work when the car is turned off? if you press the door handles, it triggers the car to scan for keys. The battery can be recharged while the car is moving.

It also has an advantage, because if you set the range short enough- which would help reduce battery usage- then you get rid of the problem of people leaving their keys in the garage, because they won't be able to get the car started in the first place.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

This really has a simple fix. The doors in most vehicles go "ding, ding, ding" if they're left open. The seatbelts do the same if the car realizes they're unbuckled. Why not make the car go "ding, ding, ding" if you accidentally leave it on?

Actually, I'm pretty sure most keyless cars already do this. At least, my Prius does it. If I take the keyfob with me and get out of the car (and close the door), it pings at me. If I try to lock the car with the engine on, it pings at me angrily. Heck, it even pings at me in a VERY condescending tone if i try to lock the door (engine off) and the keyfob is INSIDE the car.

I typically ignore it though, since I'm doing it on purpose and my keyfob is always on my person anyway (in my purse that comes with me.)

It also has an advantage, because if you set the range short enough- which would help reduce battery usage- then you get rid of the problem of people leaving their keys in the garage, because they won't be able to get the car started in the first place.

This is what confuses me. I tested the range of my keyless fob. It literally had to be INSIDE the car for the car to start at all. My brother's (his is a different make/model) is the same way. Sure, I suppose other makes/models could have different ranges, but it makes sense to me that most of the manufacturers/programmers would make the distance as small as it is on my brother's and my cars.

[catcul]

That would be an awfully easy thing to do, especially with a hybrid where the engine isn't always running when the car is on. Yes, you should make sure you've turned it off, but that does not IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER remove legitimate blame from the manufacturer if the design makes it too easy to do.

There are too many other things that are awfully easy to do with your car. It's the driver's/owner's responsibility to operate the vehicle properly. It's awfully easy to leave the car on with the keys still in the ignition, too.

[HYHYBT]

So, I don't really understand how people could be confused. What item in your life do you have that legit turns off (not just goes to sleep mode) when you get far enough away from it? Why would you assume the car would?

Which other items *where it really matters* do you sometimes switch off immediately, but other times leave on for a while, long enough that you might forget you hadn't turned it off because you're now thinking of something else and it doesn't provide obvious feedback that it's still on?

RFID chips (the technology used for contactless cards) in the key fob- all it would require is for the car to regularly scan for keys in the vicinity while it is turned in, if it finds the correct one, the car stays on, if it doesn't, it turns itself off.

Those don't pick up every time, and NOT shutting off when it should stay on is more important.

There are too many other things that are awfully easy to do with your car. It's the driver's/owner's responsibility to operate the vehicle properly. It's awfully easy to leave the car on with the keys still in the ignition, too.-

So what?

[Dreamstalker]

I'd think it shouldn't be too hard to do something similar to this--engine shuts off when the fob gets too far away (say outside the vehicle and/or a certain distance from the contact point).

[catcul]

There are too many other things that are awfully easy to do with your car. It's the driver's/owner's responsibility to operate the vehicle properly. It's awfully easy to leave the car on with the keys still in the ignition, too.

So what?

My point is that just because something is "too easy to do," that doesn't mean that the manufacturer is at fault. I remember a story about a woman who died when she left her Jaguar on in her garage and fell asleep in her car. It had a keyed ignition. Even after a homicide investigation, the police determined that her death was accidental.

Does that mean her family should have sued Jaguar since it was way too easy for her to leave the car running?

[AmbrosiaWriter]

Which other items *where it really matters* do you sometimes switch off immediately, but other times leave on for a while, long enough that you might forget you hadn't turned it off because you're now thinking of something else and it doesn't provide obvious feedback that it's still on?

I pretty much never leave my car running when I get out of it, even if I'm coming right back to it. The only time is when I am running it to get the heat/AC up to speed so I'm coming back to it in less than 5 minutes anyway and it doesn't matter. So my car is not one of those items that "I'll just leave on for a while."

Who gets a new car (because seriously, keyless cars are still pretty damn new to the market) and ISN'T in the habit of automatically turning it off before you get out of it?

Who would feel comfortable enough getting out of a 20K+ item without turning it off and making sure it's locked?

It's a seriously lazy person who thinks "Oh it will automatically turn off when I walk far enough away from it" considering that turning off a keyless car is literally only pushing a button. I have to wonder who makes that assumption in the first place, instead of automatically assuming like every other car in existence, you have to turn it off manually.

A running car (even if you cannot hear the engine like in a Prius because it turns off {and I do own a Prius}) isn't that hard to miss. Just looking at the dash board is enough to know it is still on. Turn it off before you get out of the car!

How stupid proof do we need to make items before we have to realize that people need to take more responsibility for their own property and actions? Turning off your car manually has been the habit for car owners since they were invented, it takes conscious effort to change that habit.