Keyless Means Lawsuit

[Tama]

Willful ignorance...people use it all the time to persuade themselves of lots of things. It is no different here. "It should do this because I want it to. Oops it doesn't, I'ma sue you"

I'm sure that has happened before.

[HYHYBT]

Please quit ignoring the potential time lag between when a person stops driving a car and when they get out of it, with turning it off possible at any point in between. If you often shut it off right away, but for some reason don't this time, if the car gives no indication that it's on then it is unreasonably easy to forget you haven't shut it off yet. What's so hard about making sure that there is such an indication (handled in normal cars by the sound of the engine and the inability to get the key out) that manufacturers should have no responsibility whatsoever to include it?

[Canarr]

Please quit ignoring the potential time lag between when a person stops driving a car and when they get out of it, with turning it off possible at any point in between. If you often shut it off right away, but for some reason don't this time, if the car gives no indication that it's on then it is unreasonably easy to forget you haven't shut it off yet. What's so hard about making sure that there is such an indication (handled in normal cars by the sound of the engine and the inability to get the key out) that manufacturers should have no responsibility whatsoever to include it?

Are the engines of keyless cars somehow that much more stealthy than those of cars with keys? Or why do you think that the indication of "normal" cars (sound of the engine) doesn't apply here?

Sure, it's fairly easy to forget turning off your car, if you don't do it immediately. But "unreasonably" easy? For me, it's practically automatic - pull into a parking space, switch off the engine, done.

And, in the end, it's my responsibility to make sure my car is off. Why should the manufacturer be responsible for that? They're responsible for providing a car that is safe to use; the actual safe use is the driver's responsibility.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

(handled in normal cars by the sound of the engine and the inability to get the key out)

It's also "unreasonably" easy to just get out of the car without even attempting to pull the key out because you think you've already turned it off. Because if you're that distracted to think that car is already off, you might also be too distracted to hear the engine as you get out and walk away. Especially since a lot of modern cars have much quieter engines than the power horses of old.

My old 2000 Toyota Solara could barely be heard from either the inside or the outside of the car when it was running.

So it is just as easy to leave a key-ed car running, with the key in the ignition.

[TheHuckster]

Are the engines of keyless cars somehow that much more stealthy than those of cars with keys? Or why do you think that the indication of "normal" cars (sound of the engine) doesn't apply here?

I have a 2011 car with keyed ignition, and the engine is VERY quiet when idle. I could definitely see myself, especially if distracted or in a loud parking lot, never hearing the obvious cue of a running engine. The only reason I don't leave it on is due to the muscle memory of always turning the key and removing it from the ignition before I even take off my seatbelt.

Some of these newfangled cars even turn OFF the engine when idle, even in gear at an intersection. I could definitely imagine keyless ignition messing up my muscle memory which, when coupled with the ever-improving acoustics of idling engines in newer cars, could make me forget to turn off the engine. Cars, for the longest time, have buzzers and lights indicating when you're running out of gas, are leaving the keys in the ignition after you open the door, driving without your seatbelt, and are low on oil. I find it amazing that the car manufacturers left out leaving your engine running while opening the door for keyless ignition.

Now, is failure to do so worthy of a lawsuit? I am on the fence on that. For sure, I think they should add a warning sound when you've got the door open with the engine running. I don't know if they are legally negligent if they aren't doing that, though. I would definitely figure that a lot of the existing warnings, especially the seatbelt warning, were results of lawsuits or threats of lawsuits in the past, so prior legal history might not be on the car manufacturers' side here.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

I find it amazing that the car manufacturers left out leaving your engine running while opening the door for keyless ignition.

I don't think they do, at least not for my Prius. Mine will chime at my if I open the driver's side door with the engine running, and even getting out and shutting the door the chime is actually broadcasted OUTSIDE the car as well so you can hear it as you walk away.

[TheHuckster]

Some cars do, but according to the OP, not all of them.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

Some cars do, but according to the OP, not all of them.

I still have to question;

How hard is it to look at your dashboard before you get out of the car? Whether it be keyless or not?

Be it keyless or keyed, if you look at your dashboard, it will tell you whether or not the car is on and running with just a glance.

[TheHuckster]

It's not a question of remembering. It's a question of muscle memory. The motion of shutting off a car isn't a conscious thing after years of driving. It's no different than other mundane things like flushing a toilet, flicking a switch, or locking your front door.

Most people who have a commute and run errands are going to be shutting their cars off at least twice a day. That's over 700 times a year. All it takes is just one of those times that something happens that causes them to forget. Maybe they have a child who is having a temper tantrum in the back seat, or you are rushing to get to work.

I mean, come on. We're all human. We forget things sometimes. A simple "ding" would definitely mitigate that one time someone forgets something, just like that one time 5 years ago I somehow forgot to flush the toilet, and was embarrassed about it.

[Gravekeeper]

Okay, seriously. I'm not getting the "har people are stupid" thing here. If there is a possibility that a product could literally kill you and your entire family because you had a brainfart one night than yes, there should be a farking safety measure of some sort in place.

I mean, I'm as fed up with stupid people as the next person, but come on guys. Anyone here claiming they've never had a bad day, were tired, distracted, in a rush, whatever and something simple slipped their mind is lying through their teeth. Death should not be a punishment for that.

Not putting the car in park and having it roll out of your garage into a ditch is stupid.

Killing your entire family in their sleep because you got distracted wrangling your kid out of her car seat is a safety issue.

[Shangri-laschild]

I can understand having the car making a noise if the engine is running. Mine makes a noise if I leave the keys in the ignition, I believe whether the engine is running or not. Honestly I would not want the engine to automatically shut off though. I can think of plenty of reasons where I might have cause to leave the vehicle running and if I had the option of doing so without leaving the keys in it I would definitely prefer that. For instance, last year I had to leave my car sitting and running for half an hour after having some battery issues.

There are plenty of things that could cause harm or even death if you just forget to do something with a vehicle. If you're driving a stick shift and you forget to put on the parking brake and it slips out of gear it could roll and hit someone. In the whole time I've been working at my current job I'd say we've had at least 10 people who's car rolled out of a spot. There are plenty of ways a while driving that you could hurt someone just by not paying attention for a short bit. Some safety proofing is good and like I said, I can see how a noise going off would be helpful. There's also a point where you end up with so much safety proofing that people get over confident and don't pay attention to certain things as much.

As for the muscle memory, you're replacing one for another. In the past you would reach for the keys to remove them. Now you're reaching for the off button.

[the_std]

As for the muscle memory, you're replacing one for another. In the past you would reach for the keys to remove them. Now you're reaching for the off button.

I would suspect that the danger here lies in the transition period between unlearning the "key" motion, and learning the "off button" motion. It isn't instantaneous, and keyed ignitions have been around for so long that it may be a very tough motion to unlearn, for some.

[TheHuckster]

As for the muscle memory, you're replacing one for another. In the past you would reach for the keys to remove them. Now you're reaching for the off button.

Yes, but by the very definition of muscle memory, it's not something that is automatic. Your subconscious has to learn the motion before it becomes second-nature. I would imagine that the majority of these cases are drivers who bought the car recently.

Now, that being said, after reviewing one of the articles again, there were some drivers who somehow believed that the engine just shut off automatically if the keys were out of range, in which case I fault those drivers 100%. On any device which has an on/off button, you have to assume that you have to explicitly turn it off.

[Canarr]

Not putting the car in park and having it roll out of your garage into a ditch is stupid.

Killing your entire family in their sleep because you got distracted wrangling your kid out of her car seat is a safety issue.

I get what you're saying, and I can see your point. I still don't see where keyless cars would be different from "normal" cars in that regard. You could have the same brainfart and leave the key in the ignition.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

I'm all for adding in more safety measures.

What I'm not all for is someone blaming the manufacturer for themselves not being responsible about it. Sure you can have a brain fart, and if you're wrestling your kid out of the car or whatever, are you going to hear the "ding-ding" of a car telling you the engine is on over the kid screaming over what is causing the wrestling in the first place?

We can go "what-if" "what-if" forever, but where the consensus is not meeting is how much at fault is the manufacturer for the mistakes of the end-user?