Keyless Means Lawsuit

[wolfie]

Part of the problem specific to keyless cars is that the engine will KEEP RUNNING when the key is removed from the vehicle without first hitting the "stop" button. With a keyed car, if you can't remember if you shut it off, you can check your pockets - if the key is there, then the car is not running (since you can't take the key out without shutting off the engine). With a keyless car, having the key in your pocket DOES NOT mean that the car is not running - you'd need to go back to the garage to check the car itself.

[HYHYBT]

Right. Not only that, but frequently (virtually a certainty if this is happening in your garage) you're going to use your keys shortly afterward, say, to get in the house. Hard not to notice you don't have them.

[dendawg]

Hard not to notice you don't have them.

I don't know about you, but typically my parents had the car and house keys on separate keychains.

[TheHuckster]

I don't know about you, but typically my parents had the car and house keys on separate keychains.

I'm confused as to why you would find yourself in a situation where you need one or the other but not both often enough to warrant having them on different chains. Besides, of course, if I'm taking a walk or something. But, even then, I either take the spare house keys or just take the full keychain.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

Right. Not only that, but frequently (virtually a certainty if this is happening in your garage) you're going to use your keys shortly afterward, say, to get in the house. Hard not to notice you don't have them.

So what about the people who have garages? I know a lot of people who don't need to use their house keys to get into the house after driving because they either park INSIDE the garage, or near it and open the garage with their opener in the car. The door into the house that goes from the garage to the house is never locked (or hell, can't lock), because the garage door is pretty much auto locked once it is down.

Hell, I don't even think ANY of my family have house keys on their car key chains...


There are just so many extenuating circumstances... so many "what if?" "what if?"

If the car manufacturer's added in more safety measures to help people along if they are either always scatterbrained or occasionally have a brain fart, that's great, and I hope they do it too! It's only a good thing.

But I'm still hesitant to say it is the manufacturer's fault for people having those brain farts and not the responsibility of the car owner to make sure they are operating their own property safely.

It's like someone accidentally leaves their oven on (like my mum -.- almost EVERY time). If it is a gas oven, that could be super dangerous -- or just super expensive if they just blow through all their gas. Should they be allowed to sue the manufacturer of the oven for a new tank of gas because the oven didn't let off alarms that it was still on 6 hours after the food was taken out? Or sue them if they burn their own house down from leaving the oven on?

(Yah, yah, you can go into the "well you see ovens more frequently because you are in your kitchen all the time" etc. etc. but it's a fairly equivalent example. Absentminded mistake, is the manufacturer at fault?)

[HYHYBT]

My (electric) oven will not stay on more than a few hours at a time. If you want it on longer, you have to turn it back on.

[HYHYBT]

'm confused as to why you would find yourself in a situation where you need one or the other but not both often enough to warrant having them on different chains

If you have multiple vehicles, it can be more convenient to have separate rings for each, especially as large as many car keys are. Or the other way around, if multiple people drive the same vehicle, it means not needing to make copies for everyone.

edit: sorry, I'd intended to add this to the above post, rather than doing a separate one.)

[wolfie]

I'm confused as to why you would find yourself in a situation where you need one or the other but not both often enough to warrant having them on different chains.

You drop your car off at the mechanic for service, or lend your buddy your van so he can pick up the big-screen TV he wants to buy but which won't fit in his Mustang. Do you want to have to separate the keys that go with that vehicle from the others on your ring? Also, multiple rings with a few keys each don't "bulk out" your pocket as much as one monster keyring.

[s_stabeler]

I think the question basically is that considering that in cars without keyless ignition, you need to take the keys with you- out of the ignition- when leaving the vehicle, should keyless manufacturers create a system to warn you if you have forgotten to turn the car off when leaving the vehicle. Personally, i come down in the camp of "warn, but don't actually turn the car off"- possibly because every single car I've been in has had a beeper that goes off if you open the door while the car is still running. Creating an equivalent system seems sensible.

On the other hand, I don't know how difficult it would be to create a system whereby if the keys leave the car, the car automatically shuts off. If it can be done relatively easily, without significantly risking the car stopping in traffic, then fine. but if it would be difficult, then don't.

[TheHuckster]

You drop your car off at the mechanic for service, or lend your buddy your van so he can pick up the big-screen TV he wants to buy but which won't fit in his Mustang. Do you want to have to separate the keys that go with that vehicle from the others on your ring?

Well, yeah, that's what I do. Takes 5 seconds.

I'm the type who likes just caring about having three things before I exit the house: Wallet, keys, cellphone. I don't want to worry about car keys, house keys, work keys, etc. if I don't have to.

[wolfie]

I don't know how difficult it would be to create a system whereby if the keys leave the car, the car automatically shuts off. If it can be done relatively easily, without significantly risking the car stopping in traffic, then fine.

Automakers wouldn't dare do that. Without significant extra work, the easiest way to sense that the keys are no longer present would be for the "are the keys in the car?" detector to no longer detect the presence of the keys. If someone's pocket contents shifted, their pocket change (remember, coins are metal) could wind up shielding the key, resulting in shutdown.

The alternative, looking for a progression of "key in car", "key immediately outside car", "key not present", before shutting down would also be vulnerable to a failed read. Remember that when getting out of a car and walking away, there's a MUCH higher chance of pocket contents shifting than there is while sitting in the car. In this case, a failed read on "key immediately outside car" would result in a dilemma for the on-board computer: Are the keys in the car but shielded (need to keep running), or have they left the vehicle (need to shut down)? It would need to risk either shutting down when it should keep running, or not shut down when it's supposed to WHEN THE SYSTEM WAS DESIGNED TO SHUT DOWN IF THE KEYS ARE REMOVED.

It's less of a legal risk for the carmakers to not even try to shut down when the keys are removed (documenting in the manual that the driver needs to explicitly shut off the car) than to make an attempt and risk one of two dangerous situations in the event of a failed transponder read.

[s_stabeler]

I've reread what i said, and I actually made a small mistake- the keys are irrelevant. Make the system be that if the car is running, and the door opens, a beeper sounds. It wouldn't' be expensive- indeed, the feature already exists on many cars, keyless or not- and then, the issue goes away.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

I've reread what i said, and I actually made a small mistake- the keys are irrelevant. Make the system be that if the car is running, and the door opens, a beeper sounds. It wouldn't' be expensive- indeed, the feature already exists on many cars, keyless or not- and then, the issue goes away.

Yeah my car already does that, and even goes so far as to yell at you should you lock the doors with the engine running with the key fob outside of the car.

I was going to say "NO DON'T SHUT OFF MY CAR!" because in the dead of winter when it is freezing cold I turn my car on to let it warm up and take the key fob with me.

I am all for going "Uh... DUH!?" to the keyless car manufacturers if their cars don't beep at you should you open the door when the car is still running. Why the heck would they not put in a feature like that when keyed cars have them?

My (electric) oven will not stay on more than a few hours at a time. If you want it on longer, you have to turn it back on.

That, as a person who is FREQUENTLY roasting/baking/cooking things that take longer than a few hours at a time, seems really irritating. I would not be buying that oven if I could get one that doesn't do that

I just know that when food comes out, oven is automatically turned off.

[HYHYBT]

"Few" might have been a poor choice of words; it's somewhere around ten or twelve. Anyway, the overriding feature for me was "fits the hole where the old one was," and it's an odd sort of in-between width that there weren't many choices for.