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  • "It's my opinion!"

    OR: I'm in the minority, and people are ganging up on me!

    WARNING: If you think I'm talking about you in this rant, get over yourself.

    I don't think I'm wrong in saying this is a debate forum, so let's lay down some definitions.

    Debate: A process by which people attempt to prove the validity of their point, or disprove the validity of the opposing view point.

    Forum: A place for multiple people to congregate and discuss different topics, possibly with a theme.

    However, people seem to have difficulties grasping the idea of proving their point, and that they may have to defend their point to multiple people. If you happen to have an unpopular opinion, people are not ganging up on you by disagreeing with you and pointing out flaws in your argument. You are not being disrespected by people pointing out flaws in your argument, and sarcasm, humour, and pointed comments are acceptable methods to do so, so long as they're directed to your argument rather than your personage.

    No one is obligated to agree with your position. If you come to a point where you are no longer able to defend your position, but aren't able to admit that, it is not unacceptable for people to point out that "It's my opinion" isn't a valid defence. You are free to have an opinion. You are free to have an irrational opinion even. What you are not allowed to do is bitch about people disagreeing with your opinion once you've voiced it. If you are truly so hurt by being in the minority, stop posting in that thread. Having your opinion disputed is not being discriminated against. The world discriminates against me. I’m a left-handed, overweight male in excess of 6’2”. The world simply does not accommodate me. Doors open the wrong way, scissors are awkward, rooms are backwards. Signs are too low, seats in vehicles don’t have enough leg room, chairs are too narrow. The list is fairly extensive. But I don’t bitch about it. I know I’m outside the norm, so I soldier on. I accommodate myself to life. If I can do that, you can handle having an unpopular opinion. If you can’t, you’re probably on the wrong site. Bloody well defend your statements, or make clear that they’re indefensible, but saying “I’m right because I’m right,” or any variant thereof not only instantly makes you actually wrong, it makes you a self-righteous dumbass. If your only point of support is something which defines itself as correct and above scrutiny, then you’re not debating. And lest anyone become hung up on the fact that some arguments naturally cannot have evidence, proof and support can and do mean more than being able to point to physicalities. A well-constructed logical argument can serve as proof. What’s a well-constructed argument? One where the points of logic used are defensible as not being objectively incorrect. If you can provide a solid chain of reasoning, that works. But if you at any point say “that’s just how it is,” you may want to double-check that you’re having the same conversation. Seriously. If that is how it is, aka self-evident, the other person should have realized that. If he or she didn’t, ascertain why.

    Furthermore, make at least a half-assed effort to understand why you're in the minority. Is everyone else arguing justice while you're arguing vengeance? Are you arguing morality while everyone else is debating scientific principles? Are you using a different definition of a word than everyone else? If there's a difference in what you're talking about, and what the other people are talking about, of course there's going to be conflict. Try and be part of the same conversation.

    More, when you run out of arguments, please don't start using fallacies. I'm not just talking ad hominem. I'm talking about the whole gamut. If people are talking about a specific case, don't talk about generalities. If people are talking about a general area of something, don't pull out the most hyper-specific case and then point out that people are stupid for saying one thing when this one-in-a-million case would be an exception, unless you are using it to demonstrate an aspect of your argument, but be prepared to acknowledge it's a rare case.

    Obviously we're not all classically trained sophists, so we're going to slip. That's fine. Just acknowledge that slip if someone points it out.

    Another thing, LEARN TO PARSE A QUESTION. Don't just fire off an answer. Take a few minutes if you have to, but try and figure out what someone's actually asking. Then, after you've answered, take a step back and see if you actually answered that question. This will solve a lot of the whole "You didn't actually answer the question" issues. Don't answer what you wish they'd ask. Don't answer the question you can answer. If you're unsure what the question is, try and address that in your response. Something like "If I understand what you're asking is this, in which case, my answer is thus." Nothing pisses off a debater like someone who seems to be deliberately avoiding the point you were trying to make. If you cannot answer a point you don't automatically lose if you say "I cannot address that at this time." Just say "I can't answer that to your satisfaction," possibly with the reason why. Not everyone knows everything. You can admit ignorance. You may not have the specialized knowledge necessary to answer a question. Maybe you're not a legal expert. Maybe you don’t know the physics behind constructing a suspension bridge. That’s fine. Pony up, admit you’re not an expert, and plunge forward on offering a lay-opinion. If someone knows something better, everyone’s learned something.

    Sometimes, someone is going to disagree with you just for the sake of disagreeing with you. Some people are simply contrarians. If you suspect you’re debating someone who’s simply being contrary, and not making an effort to make a point of their own, you are allowed to challenge them by saying “Alright, so what’s your take?” If you put the burden on them for a change, you might see them give up. But by the same token, not everyone who disagrees with you is doing it just to be contrary. Even if they don’t actually support the position they’ve taken, they still might have a point they’re trying to get across. Devil’s Advocates aren’t trolls or flamers. They’re trying to either start an honest-to-god debate. One where someone won’t get pissy just because they aren’t being agreed with. If you’re emotionally invested in your argument, don’t. Your bias will show. You will be called on your bias. If you are called on your bias, do not get pissy. Acknowledge that you have a bias, and then either try to mitigate it, or frame your future comments in such a fashion that gives a nod to this. If you had a friend that was killed in a freak ice cream incident, and someone’s made a thread about how ice cream should be in all schools, you’ll earn a lot of points if you say up front, “My friend was killed in an ice cream accident, so I don’t think that ice cream should be in schools.” Anyone who simply dismisses you after that wasn’t in for a real debate anyways. But keep in mind, you’ll still need to actually try to do some convincing, if you want to stay in the argument. Having a tragedy in your past is not an instant win card.

    If someone says something that can be taken one of two ways, and one of those ways is insulting, the person probably meant it the other. It doesn’t hurt to point out the possibly offensive nature of their comment, but for FUCK’S sake, don’t go overboard. Do not return the insults, do not fly in to a tizzy about being maligned. Just say “Hey, what you wrote could be interpreted this way, you may want to watch that in the future. I’ll assume you meant it this second way, which is not insulting, and proceed on that. “ It makes you look like the bigger person if they DID mean to insult you. Hey, that’s kinda like the “if you’re not sure what the question is, try and clarify it” tip, isn’t it? Keep in mind that if it is an insult, that’s what the mods are here for. To keep it from getting personal. We’re not here to mediate. We’re here because dammit, we wanna have us a logic fight. We’re going to get down in to it too. Says right in the rules. “Moderators are not neutral parties.” We enforce the rules as presented, but we have our opinions, and no reason to be shy about stating it. That doesn’t mean that we’re going to use our “modly powers” to rig the debate, or that we’ll disregard the rules. When it comes to those rules, we ARE impartial. However, we also reserve the right to mercilessly mock your butt for reporting someone for not agreeing with you.

    Continuing in the vein of “if you’re unsure, don’t assume,” make it easier for other people. Be precise. If you mean something specific, use that word. Don’t swap it around with another word that you consider equivalent. Cars are not the same as trucks, for instance. If you’re using a word how it normally would not be used, state flat out that you’re using “bad” to mean “action of no redeeming value,” rather than “action of negative value,” for example. If someone responds, and doesn’t understand, then clarify. Don’t jump on their misunderstanding. It’s all part of making sure everyone’s having the same conversation. What’s the point in responding to something when it’s not necessarily what they would have said if they had actually known what you really meant? It’s a tangent with no value.

    Cont. Next Post.
    Any comment I make should not be taken as an absolute, unless I say it should be. Even this one.

  • #2
    But what if it is a tangent WITH value? Since there’s no mediators, the conversation can and will wander. Sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. If the conversation has wandered, and it seems like a productive tangent, roll with it. Interesting debates can happen on accident. By the same token, if people are still trying to have the old conversation, be polite and take it to a new thread, and link to the old one. However, if it’s been 5 or 6 pages of drift, the old conversation can probably be considered safely buried, and if anyone wants to try and resurrect it, they’ll have to try and redrift the thread. As always, if a mod steps in and says “take it to a new thread please,” or “don’t associate this topic with this,” for whatever reason there may be, don’t be a douche. There’s likely to be a reason. Killing a debate in its sleep isn’t something anyone likes to do.

    MULTIPLE POSTS ARE MORE DIFFICULT TO READ. If you’re addressing a similar point in consecutive posts, use the bloody multi-quote. By spacing out your arguments over several posts, you’re inviting people to skip some of what you’re saying. The only reason you should be making multiple posts is if you’re doing a lengthy address to two very different points. And I’m not talking a sentence or 3. I’m talking multi-paragraph replies. The multi-quote button isn’t going to freaking bite you, or delete your hard drive. You click it next to each post you want to address, then click reply when you’re ready. A chimp can do it. You’re smarter than a chimp, right?

    If you feel like “you’re always in the wrong,” maybe you are. Go take some time to evaluate yourself as a person. Why are you always on the far end of the spectrum in a debate? Are you being rational? Are you being proportionate? Do you actually have a reason to think what you do, anymore? Remember, your beliefs and opinions can change over time, as you gain more experience and the world changes. Clinging to old beliefs just because they’re comfortable is a piss-poor reason. Own up and change a little if you feel badly for always disagreeing. If you *don’t* feel badly for always disagreeing, but feel you’re still often felt to be wrong, go fucking learn to debate, because you sure as shit don’t know how. If you did, you’d hold your own occasionally, and just be in the minority. If someone’s routinely trouncing your opinions, study their techniques. What are they doing differently? Are they providing more details than you? Secondary evidence? Logistics which hold together better? Or maybe they’re simply good at poking holes in your view. If that’s the case, turn around and look at how you’re arguing, and where you can improve. If you feel the other person is “right,” then they convinced you. If you feel your position is wrong, they convinced you. That’s kind of the point of a debate. To sway the opinions and beliefs of people. But that doesn’t always need to be the outcome. It is possible to have two or more well-meaning, intelligent human beings capable of being unable to reconcile their viewpoints, and each believe themselves correct. After all, “No one goes to war believing God is on the side of their enemy.” A debate forum thrives on its members having different viewpoints on different topics. Often, the topics won’t have an objectively correct answer. Great grounds for debates in there. But if you can’t even get the other parties to acknowledge that your viewpoint may be valid after your arguments are made, GO BACK AND LOOK. Look at your arguments. Did the other side counter those arguments? Did they counter all of them, and were you unable to refute any of those counters? If so, THEY ARE NOT BEING UNREASONABLE. THEY ARE BEING LOGICAL. YOU FAILED TO PRESENT THEM WITH AN ARGUMENT THAT HOLDS UP TO SCRUTINY. IF YOUR ARGUMENT FAILS TO STAND UP, THEN YOUR POSITION CAN PROBABLY BE DISCARDED SAFELY. Go back and either find new arguments, or ways to shore up the old ones against criticism. Nothing wrong with that. The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. If you think something is wrong, or dangerous, you are the one who needs to prove it. Not the opposition. They are fully justified in saying “I do not think your position is true. I would like some form of evidence that supports it.” However, you cannot prove a negative. If there is no evidence to support the existence of something, you can have the attitude that it doesn’t exist, and the burden actually belongs to the one asserting that something does exist. If I say purple people eaters don’t exist, it’s your responsibility to prove that they do, if it is your assertion that they’re real.

    If you just want to rant about something, put it in the “Things I hate” section, with “RANT” in the title. People will probably be less likely to pick it apart, since you’re probably not being logical at that point anyways.

    Finally, STOP TAKING SHIT PERSONALLY. The person advocating human rights for everyone is not saying that the person who murdered your mother should go free. The person saying that the sentence was too heavy, and was unfair is not espousing anarchy and free reign for all to do as they please, since that’s obviously the only choice when they don’t think the drunk driver should be subject to the death penalty. The person disagrees with you. Fucking live with it. They are not out to personally kill your dog. They don’t have your set of circumstances, they don’t have your bias in the situation. An attack on your opinion is not an attack on you, or your friends, or your family. It was a comment on what you’ve stated. If you didn’t say it, they wouldn’t be commenting on it. You brought that shit on yourself. Go take a walk around the block, calm down, take deep cleansing breaths, and then address the point the person actually made. Don’t pretend anything different. Don’t misrepresent your position so that it looks like the person attacked you, or said something different, don’t purposefully ask leading questions which are irrelevant to what they said in an attempt to “catch” them at something, just deal with it like a rational human being.

    In summary: Put up or shut up. The point of being on a debate site is to debate. That means people will disagree with you. Enough issues come up that eventually you’ll have an opinion shared by few, if any people. Having multiple people disagree is not being ganged up on, or being dogpiled. It is an invitation to defend your point, which you must have been prepared to do if you posted it in the first place. If you can’t defend it, don’t say it. Just declaring that “It’s my opinion” is not a defence. Never has been, never will be.
    Any comment I make should not be taken as an absolute, unless I say it should be. Even this one.

    Comment


    • #3
      Wow. It seems like someone really got under your skin, 'eh?

      Here's a tip. If you're not having fun posting anymore, maybe it's best to take a break for a few days! LOL
      Last edited by Peppergirl; 06-27-2009, 05:13 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Wow. I really thought I took stuff to heart, but then I just got off the computer and went and hung out with my friends and boyfriend and did something other than dwelling on it online.

        Comment


        • #5
          I think BroomJockey was just mad because this is happening multiple times, with multiple people, in multiple scenarios. It destroys the point of a debating forum. He isn't taking anything personally, he's trying to make certain people understand the point of such a forum. And he said at the very start, "if you think this is about you, get over yourself". It's obviously not about any one person.
          Last edited by the_std; 06-27-2009, 10:03 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by BroomJockey View Post
            Finally, STOP TAKING SHIT PERSONALLY. The person advocating human rights for everyone is not saying that the person who murdered your mother should go free. The person saying that the sentence was too heavy, and was unfair is not espousing anarchy and free reign for all to do as they please, since that’s obviously the only choice when they don’t think the drunk driver should be subject to the death penalty.
            yup actually I believe that falls under false dichotomy, the either-or fallacy-"you're either for me or against me". Nope maybe I just don't care either way which is a valid third option, or maybe I'm just for someone else and not necessarily against you.

            Also I normally use "the fallacy files" just another resource for those not wanting to make a logical fallacy.

            And wow you're over 6'2" Broomjockey- I was not aware of that.......
            Registered rider scenic shore 150 charity ride

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            • #7
              Another thing related to this that sometimes happens is this scenario.

              Person A makes an argument for a given position.

              Person B makes an argument against Person A's argument.

              Person A throws up his hands and says, "Well, it seems the the other side simply isn't open to debate about this matter! I guess they just don't believe in free speech as I do."

              Comment


              • #8
                Then person Bs shouldn't try to talk to children As.

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                • #9
                  One thing I've liked about this place, is when things are getting fairly deep, and down and dirty, someone will usually come along and drop a line to take the piss out of everything (or just 1 thing)... always makes me smile
                  ZOE: Preacher, don't the Bible got some pretty specific things to say about killing?

                  SHEPHERD BOOK: Quite specific. It is, however, Somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps.

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