College Rants

[Rageaholic]

I have to let off some steam about college. I'm not the stereotypical student who stays at a dorm at some university. I stay at home, my parents pay for my college, and I go to a *gasp* community college!

First of all, I am sick of people thinking less of me because I'm going to a community college. The purpose of community college is to take all your GE requirements and transfer as much credits as they allow so you won't have to spend as much on a university. Let's face it, the costs for college are ridiculous! If you can save money by going to a community college, is that such a bad thing? Why even rush to a university anyway? I mean, you're going to be taking the same courses no matter what. Might as well take em for cheaper, right? (not that I have a problem with people wanting to go right to a university. If that works for them, I'm happy for them, but it doesn't work for everybody).

Then there's the 4.0 people. Again, I'm happy for you if you can achieve such a high grade, but don't get all pissy because you got your first B after straight A's. Hell, I was happy to get a C average my first term because the courses I took were pretty hard. When I got my first B, I was over joyed! Maybe I shouldn't direct my anger so much at them as their parents or cultural expectations. I mean, I have OCD too and know what it's like. The last thing anxious people need is unreasonably high expectations placed on them. I've been friends with people who has had high expectations placed on them by their parents and now they feel like a complete failure (even though they only made a few mistakes).

So now that I got those big rants out of the way, I want to list other annoyances I have about college right now.

-Mandatory Attendance, even though all the teacher does is go over chapters we've already read. If I can learn all the material at home and don't have to come to class, then why should I?

-Professors getting angry over being late. I've had one teacher in particular who would lock out the students who were late. And it was an 8:00am class! If I show up late, I will gladly accept responsibility for what I missed, but you're not helping when you lock me out! There is no way in hell I am risking my life through rush hour traffic just so I won't be 5 minutes late. It's a pointless rule that hurts students more than helps them.

-The copyright BS. Look, I know that you don't want me taking credit for others work, but there is a such thing as over enforcement. I've had one teacher who made the class sign a contract promising they understand the 'seriousness' of copyright infringement. I also hate how you have to cite sources in a very specific way (MLA bs). As long as they know where the source is from, does it really matter if I didn't indent a specific way?

-The costs of textbooks. Way overpriced for what you get. Some cost close to one hundred dollars. And yes, I know I said my parents pay for this, but it still pees me off. Especially when the teacher doesn't even use the textbook.

-Scantrons. I can easily afford those 50 cent scantrons for tests, but it still pisses me off. They can't just give them to you in class, you have to use one of those machines, that half the time will tell you to "Make another selection". So you'll end up spending 50 cents for nothing.

So those are things I needed to get off my chest about college. Feel for to add your own or even debate mine. This things just piss me off.

[BroomJockey]

I also hate how you have to cite sources in a very specific way (MLA bs). As long as they know where the source is from, does it really matter if I didn't indent a specific way?

No issues with most of what you said, except for this. Yes, it matters. At the most basic level, if everyone's just doing their citations however, it makes it more difficult for the teacher to search out the sources to check for plagarism, or that the sources even exist. If you've 20 people in your class, and I've known papers to have a 5 reference minimum, that's 100 references to potentially check. Also it proves you're able to follow instructions.

At a more advanced level, it's helping your research skills, it helps familiarize you with the format of bibliographies so you can get the information from them in other books quickly and easily.

Lastly, and important to me, some of your class might become writers, and I swear, the next author who writes a manuscript and doesn't know proper citation protocol will find my foot so far up their ass that I'll be able to change my socks through their mouth.

[Greenday]

Broom already covered my feelings on citing references so I get to skip that one.

Mandatory attendance - First off, this is to deal with the majority of people who skip classes. Most people that skip classes do poorly, then whine and bitch to heads of departments until something is done about it (unless they are talking to the head of my department, in which case he will literally laugh at you then tell you to get the hell out of his office). It also gives the teacher an excuse to keep track of who goes to class so when someone who does skip complains about how hard the class was, the teacher can just say that they skipped the class, here's my proof. Plus, if you aren't going to show up to class, and everyone takes that attitude, why should the teacher? It's why I hate it when teachers post all the slides on blackboard. If you can learn it so easily, just test out of the class.

Lateness usually/almost always involves disrupting the class. You open the door, you make noise, and everyone turns around to see who it is. And more than half the time, the late person doesn't have the common courtesy to take the farthest available spot in the back of the room, they just walk in front of the entire class to get that seat in the front. It's very rude. Either take a later class or wake up earlier. After your first semester, you get to pick your classes so if you pick a class that you will be late for and get locked out...not the teacher's fault.

Textbook prices - Outrageous, I agree. That's the publisher's fault. Why some of my book cost nearly $200 is beyond me. What pisses me off even more is when you go try to sell a book back that cost $150 new at the bookstore, and you barely used it and never wrote in it, they will buy it back for MAYBE $20 if you are really lucky.

[DesignFox]

Yea, I have to agree with Greenday about the lateness thing.

I was always on time to my classes. It pissed me off to no end when people would stroll in late and disrupt class. I paid good money to sit in class and learn. I wanted to learn. People coming in late always disturbed the flow of the lecture or lab because we had to stop and get them caught up, or wait for them to settle in and stop making noise, etc.

My biology class had the worst offenders. I begged my prof to let me lock the slackers out. I mean, some of these girls would wander in 10-20 mins late! For LAB! And the worst offenders weren't even commuters, they LIVED ON CAMPUS!

I also agree that the prices of the text books is outrageous. I had one or two profs who only barely touched the texts, and it was completely irritating that the bookstore would only give me 15-20 bucks buyback on a $100 textbook (mostly because the prof was using a newer version next year, making mine obsolete). That was some crap.

[BroomJockey]

Textbook prices - Outrageous, I agree. That's the publisher's fault. Why some of my book cost nearly $200 is beyond me. What pisses me off even more is when you go try to sell a book back that cost $150 new at the bookstore, and you barely used it and never wrote in it, they will buy it back for MAYBE $20 if you are really lucky.

Textbook buyback is fucking *criminal.* Complete rip off. To that, however, I'd like to add that I work for a scholarly publisher, and we very kindly price our books to reflect actual costs. You know what? Our advanced level texts cost about $60 at retail. Yeah. I know. What. The. Fuck.

[Rageaholic]

No issues with most of what you said, except for this. Yes, it matters. At the most basic level, if everyone's just doing their citations however, it makes it more difficult for the teacher to search out the sources to check for plagarism, or that the sources even exist. If you've 20 people in your class, and I've known papers to have a 5 reference minimum, that's 100 references to potentially check. Also it proves you're able to follow instructions.

At a more advanced level, it's helping your research skills, it helps familiarize you with the format of bibliographies so you can get the information from them in other books quickly and easily.

Lastly, and important to me, some of your class might become writers, and I swear, the next author who writes a manuscript and doesn't know proper citation protocol will find my foot so far up their ass that I'll be able to change my socks through their mouth.

But I still hate it. I hate that all these over complicated writing rules exist. Perhaps it was my english professor who made it more complicated than it needed to be. She agonized over periods being in the right spot and little things about spacing. She stressed the small BS instead of just explaining step by step how to cite. Ugh!

[AdminAssistant]

Okey-dokie, here we go. (From a life-long academic!)

First of all, I am sick of people thinking less of me because I'm going to a community college. The purpose of community college is to take all your GE requirements and transfer as much credits as they allow so you won't have to spend as much on a university. Let's face it, the costs for college are ridiculous!

Yes, college is expensive. However, the issue with community colleges is that the teachers there usually do not have the qualifications of, say, a tenured professor at a 4-year institution. You can teach community college with an Associate's Degree; I won't qualify for any position at a 4-year institution until I finish my Ph.D. Also, many 4-year degree programs are structured in a way that you start taking the introductory classes in your major your freshman year. Spending 2 years at a community college and then 2 more years at a university is going to make a few things more difficult. That is, if you can get a university to accept your credits, since fewer are doing that now. There are a lot of small state universities that are actually quite affordable, especially if you qualify for federal aid or scholarships. And what you get will be worth more than anything you pick up from a community college.

Then there's the 4.0 people.

I'm one of those "4.0 People" and yes, I was pissed as all hell when I got my one and only B in undergrad. The way I saw it - college was a job, and I wanted to do the best I could. That, and I had to get good grades to keep my scholarship. (3.5 min. GPA) I have gotten one B and one A- since I started my doctoral program, but I don't sweat those as much.

-Mandatory Attendance, even though all the teacher does is go over chapters we've already read. If I can learn all the material at home and don't have to come to class, then why should I?

If you can learn it all from the books, then why would you go to college in the first place? (Again, I think this comes from teachers who aren't as prepared or trained to teach classes.)

-Professors getting angry over being late.

Again, going to school is your job. Would you show up late for your job? Also, coming in late shows a lack of respect for your teacher, IMO.

-The copyright BS.

Academic misconduct (aka plagiarism and cheating) is a huge issue. The citation rules and academic misconduct guidelines are there to protect scholars (like myself) who spend hours and hours in libraries and looking for archival materials and going through the arduous process of getting published. MLA is actually, to me, the simplest of the citation styles...hell of a lot easier to use than Turabian (Chicago). Had to deal with that for my master's thesis. Bleh.

-The costs of textbooks.

Well, that's right up there with parking permits and athletic fees - necessary evils. Broom's right, it's the publishers. And, in some cases, the teacher doesn't get to pick the book they're using.

[MaggieTheCat]

I agree with AA about the lateness issue, and how it's like being late for work. However, I also don't think teachers should lock students out of the classroom for being late, especially if there's a legit reason. If there really are hazardous driving conditions, no employer (that I know of) is going to tell someone to skip their shift for the day if they're 10 minutes late. And, especially being from Wisconsin, I know enough not to risk breaking my neck in a car wreck when the roads are glare ice. Then again, being from Wisconsin, I also know how to leave early when it looks like the roads are going to be bad.

[Rageaholic]

Broom already covered my feelings on citing references so I get to skip that one.

Mandatory attendance - First off, this is to deal with the majority of people who skip classes. Most people that skip classes do poorly, then whine and bitch to heads of departments until something is done about it (unless they are talking to the head of my department, in which case he will literally laugh at you then tell you to get the hell out of his office). It also gives the teacher an excuse to keep track of who goes to class so when someone who does skip complains about how hard the class was, the teacher can just say that they skipped the class, here's my proof. Plus, if you aren't going to show up to class, and everyone takes that attitude, why should the teacher? It's why I hate it when teachers post all the slides on blackboard. If you can learn it so easily, just test out of the class.

Lateness usually/almost always involves disrupting the class. You open the door, you make noise, and everyone turns around to see who it is. And more than half the time, the late person doesn't have the common courtesy to take the farthest available spot in the back of the room, they just walk in front of the entire class to get that seat in the front. It's very rude. Either take a later class or wake up earlier. After your first semester, you get to pick your classes so if you pick a class that you will be late for and get locked out...not the teacher's fault.

Textbook prices - Outrageous, I agree. That's the publisher's fault. Why some of my book cost nearly $200 is beyond me. What pisses me off even more is when you go try to sell a book back that cost $150 new at the bookstore, and you barely used it and never wrote in it, they will buy it back for MAYBE $20 if you are really lucky.

As for the mandatory attendance, well, it's not as bad as in school where children can get detention (for being even a second late), but why should it affect their grade? If I can do just as good by reading the textbook and following the syllibus, than I shouldn't be marked down because I don't want to sit through two hours of stuff I already learned. Sure, keeping track of attendance is a good idea so if a student has a legitiment reason for not getting a good grade, he can see the teacher, but being graded on it is not. Usually, missing in class assignments is enough of a reason not to miss class.

And I don't see late students being disruptive at all. So they cause a distraction for a few seconds? Should they really be locked out just because their entrance might be a minor distraction? I would argue that students who show up an hour late shouldn't bother coming to class. I mean, they probably already missed most of class, but if I'm 5 minutes late, I can easily catch up on my own. I think professors who lock the doors on late students over that minor distraction are being obsessive. As long as the student doesn't expect the teacher to go over what he misses, what harm is there in letting him in?

And yeah, the textbook prices are absurd, but I think the school bookstore could be to blame for that.

[Greenday]

Once again, if you know the material already, save yourself money and test out of the class.

Not sure how many semesters you've been in college, but a lot of late people that have come into my classes tend to never be a minor disruption. Especially this semester where we don't always have enough chairs because the school allowed more people in the class than seats. So then we have to stop class and find the person a seat which takes some decent time.

Textbook prices is the publishers. A couple of my teachers write the books we use. They try to make them as short and concise as possible as the publishers jack up the price to the school for anything fancy. My philosophy teacher made his book so short and concise with no pics or anything that it barely cost me any money. What a great guy.

[BroomJockey]

Textbook prices is the publishers.

Some publishers. But to say it's all the publishers is narrow-minded at best, and delusional at worst. The biggest issue is textbook buyback.

Right, here's academic publishing 101, Canadian-style. I'm going to assume the basic facts and figures are similar for US academic publishing, though on a larger scale.

The lifecycle of a textbook is a teacher does a lot of work. On their own time. Once they've got the basics of the manuscript hammered out, they bring it to us. We send it out for review by at least 2 subject matter experts, the author has to make any revisions suggested, it's sent out again, if it takes more revisions, it can keep bouncing back and forth for a while. Keep in mind that at no point has the author been paid yet.

After it's finally been hammered out like that, it goes to a committee that decides whether or not it'll be published. If it's accepted, then it goes to a copy editor, bounces around there for a month or two, goes to design for a month, then the proofreader. Btw, author's still not seen a dime, and it could be a year from first submission.

After the design and proofreading, it'll go to the printer, when it can finally go to distribution.

In addition to taking well over a year from submission to being available, the production costs are a damned sight higher than you'd expect.

We use mostly freelancers, so the costs will be lower in a place large enough to do it all in-house, but not by much.

Author gets 10% off the cover price, automatically, as royalties. Some demand more, or advances.
Books are sold to bookstores/retail outlets at 40% discount of the cover price. That leaves 50% to cover the following expenses:

Printing will cost anywhere from $30-50k for 1,000 copies. More for hardcover, lots of colour, larger sizes, etc. Highest I can recall seeing is about $100/copy for a 5 volume hardcover set.
Readers get an honorarium of $125 each.
Copyeditors get about $2k for a book of 300 pages, unless there's excessive technical jargon, or other circumstances.
Designers get $3k or so.
Proofreaders about $1k.
If anything needs to be redrawn for clarity or size, that can be exorbitant, I've seen cartographer's bills for $4k for 3 maps.
Scanning images not in digital format can cost about $20/image, with a bulk discount.
Normal operating costs for the publisher. Rent, salaries, office supplies, paying the distributor, etc etc.
None of this includes possible unique extra expenses that can crop up on different projects.

The first print run 99% of the time covers costs, if it completely sells out. Second printings are where profits come from. However, if a bookstore buys back textbooks and sells them for slightly cheaper, it undercuts the primary sales, meaning it takes longer for publishers to get their investment back, and may not get to a second printing. If that happens, they need to increase the price of the first print-run, and make their profit on the first run. The other option is frequent new editions to make secondary sales more difficult. Unfortunately, either tends to move people who were on the fence to purchase used texts, where the bookstore's making near pure-profit, and the publishers get nothing.

So if you really wanna blame high textbook prices on anything, blame it on textbook buyback. It's a ripoff for students, and it's damaging to publishers. If you wanna blame it on a second something, then on authors who can't write concisely, driving up every single cost (more to copy edit, design, proofread, and print). Third is publishers who can't reign in authors, or get greedy.

*pant, sigh, wheeze* /ranty threadjack over Sorry.

[AdminAssistant]

One of my professors has had quite a few books published, and she's said that her 'profit' on the books she's written isn't usually enough to cover the costs of doing the research. However, publications tend to = tenure, so there is some financial benefit.

[gremcint]

In regards to textbooks, Amazon, get your booklist and then go to amazon. I saved over a hundred dollars one year thanks to amazon.

Now as for being late. this is not a job, there is a major difference between this and a job. I paid for this time not the other way around and it is my choice whether or not to use it and this applies to attendance. Keep in mind you reap what you sow if you skip all the time. If I show up late and walk into the room and quietly sit down and start taking notes, I am not disrupting the class for anymore than 3 seconds. If the teacher stopped or everyone looked at me then they are the one who decided to disrupt the class. If the teacher decides to berate the student for being late (which I have seen) then the teacher is disrupting the class and wasting everyone else's time.

I don't mind people being late, sometimes they can't help it. Now people being disruptive on the other hand. There was this student named Frank, he would play games on his laptop and the teacher would tell him to put it away each time, she even tried to take it one time (that's another topic). One day he came in and took out a portable harddrive and was going to assemble it during the lecture (basically this guy was an asshole and was disrupting class just for the heck of it) I went off on him and told him he shouldn't even come to class if all he was going to do is waste our time and money. afterwards I went to apologize to the teacher and let her know I didn't mean any disrespect to her, her response was: "Don't apologize I was cheering you on" and the other teacher for the class said something similar.

[AdminAssistant]

Now as for being late. this is not a job, there is a major difference between this and a job. I paid for this time not the other way around and it is my choice whether or not to use it and this applies to attendance.

And it's my choice as a teacher to deduct points from your grades based on attendance and lateness. Part of the contract that is devised between teacher and student is that the student will actually be in the classroom. If you're not going to bother coming to class, don't bother with school, in my opinion.

[gremcint]

Well what if attendance is not part of the marking scheme?

Also I didn't say I was skipping every class just that I don't need your permission to stay home one day.

However I do agree that if you never showed up then it's your fault when you fail the assignments.