Just following orders

[jackfaire]

What I hate is when I hear people say, "Support the troops they are in Iraq fighting for your freedom." Here is why. The ones that are fighting the perpetrators of 9/11 are fighting for my freedom. The ones invading a country that had nothing to do with it and did not have weapons of mass destruction are not.

People often use things like 9/11 to justify the war in Iraq personally I don't feel one way or the other about it at this point. I don't know if our invading was right or wrong it all depends on how you feel but call a spade a spade.

The war in Iraq was an invasion regardless of what our reasoning was. Do you know what you call a preemptive strike, that's right you call it an attack. Now don't give me the age old argument, "They were just following orders". If you want to go back and declare every Nazi tried at Nuremberg and declare them innocent because they were just following orders then you can use that excuse for our soldiers.

Our soldiers like every other human being in the world is responsible for their own actions. How they respond to the circumstances of their lives is entirely up to them. If it wasn't then everyone in the same situation would react the same.

No one should hide behind the banner of just following orders either you agree with your superiors or you walk away. If you claim you can't because the consequences are worse than staying then you agree with your superiors. If you don't feel strongly enough about something to put your money where your mouth is then shut up.

[DrFaroohk]

Bit of a difference between soldiers in Iraq and Nazis. Being ordered to go fight somewhere is part of your job as a soldier. You do it.

But attaching jumper cables to some guy's balls, then shoving hot chili peppers up his bum and dosing him with bursts of radiation - just to see what happens - is not part of your job. You not only have the right but the duty to say "Sir, go to hell."

[BroomJockey]

But attaching jumper cables to some guy's balls, then shoving hot chili peppers up his bum and dosing him with bursts of radiation - just to see what happens - is not part of your job. You not only have the right but the duty to say "Sir, go to hell."

Most of the Nazi soldiers didn't do that. It's the ones who ran the camps day-to-day. Take prisoners back and forth, make sure they work hard, and shoot anyone who tries to escape or start trouble. Like any other prison guard, if you describe it that way.

Yet, any Nazi soldier who worked the camps was a war criminal. So, it's not a defence to say "they're just following orders" for them, so neither is it for anyone in the US Armed Forces (I realize I'm skewing to Git Mo type stuff now, but the parallel works better than with Iraq).

[Greenday]

If our soldiers were being sent off to a war to commit genocide, they'd be full within their rights to tell the government to shove off. But seeing as that is far from the case, they really do not. I mean, they are welcome to go to jail if they try to ditch going overseas, but I don't think that's a great idea. Orders are orders. They aren't going to Iraq to commit atrocities like the Germans did in Europe. They went there originally because all evidence pointed to WMDs being in Iraq and Saddam Hussein admitting he had WMDs. How much more evidence do you want than that? You can call it a war for oil. You can call it a war to make up for Bush Sr. not doing it when he had the chance. Call it whatever you want. But having an insane dictator with WMDs to the best of our knowledge, him admitting it, and threatening peace seems like a damn good reason to step in and prevent it from happening in the future. So when you actually look at that reasonable explanation, just following orders doesn't seem like a terrible thing at all.

[BroomJockey]

And the Germans were told that others were threatening *their* way of life, and they had to do something before they were wiped out by mad men with very destructive weapons.

[Nyoibo]

If you want to go back and declare every Nazi tried at Nuremberg and declare them innocent because they were just following orders then you can use that excuse for our soldiers.

They did also try the commanders at Nuremburg, they don't get to use the "just following orders" shtick

If you claim you can't because the consequences are worse than staying then you agree with your superiors.

That I'm going to disagree with, if someone says "Do what I say or your family will suffer" and you do it, that doesn't mean you agree with what they tell you to do.

But attaching jumper cables to some guy's balls, then shoving hot chili peppers up his bum and dosing him with bursts of radiation

They aren't going to Iraq to commit atrocities like the Germans did in Europe.

*cough* Guantanamo bay *cough*

[Greenday]

*cough* Guantanamo bay *cough*

OP mentioned Iraq, I spoke about Iraq.

Guantanamo Bay is another thing. If it was just a prison facility, I wouldn't care at all. But the unethical treatment of prisoners I don't agree with and anyone there contributing should be held responsible.

[lordlundar]

They did also try the commanders at Nuremburg, they don't get to use the "just following orders" shtick

No, it was the "I'm just administration, I didn't know about the details apart from the paperwork."

[gremcint]

Bit of a difference between soldiers in Iraq and Nazis. Being ordered to go fight somewhere is part of your job as a soldier. You do it.

But attaching jumper cables to some guy's balls, then shoving hot chili peppers up his bum and dosing him with bursts of radiation - just to see what happens - is not part of your job. You not only have the right but the duty to say "Sir, go to hell."

Look I know usually we try to keep thread separate but there is something jumping out at me here.

http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?t=1739
in this thread you talk about how you don't understand why kids can't follow orders instructions with consequences and then here you talk about how people should defy these instructions orders they are being given.

As a kid you are made to follow what people tell you through reward and punishment, these people grow up and usually keep thinking the same way (If I don't listen to authority figure I'll be punished).

There's no magic switch in people's head that when they are 18 suddenly makes themselves start thinking for themselves they just keep going on the way they were before.

What were all these prison guards in before they grew up? Hitler Youth, an organisation that not only taught them that these different groups were evil and then rewarded them for punishing them, they grew up being brainwashed to act this way.

What they did was horrible, should never have been done and I hope never will be done again but things aren't always so simple.

[Kalli]

Bit of a difference between soldiers in Iraq and Nazis. Being ordered to go fight somewhere is part of your job as a soldier. You do it.

How exactly does that not apply to German soldiers?

[Greenday]

How exactly does that not apply to German soldiers?

What does getting ordered to go fight somewhere have anything to do with civilians hostage and mass murdering them because of their religion?

[Kalli]

What does getting ordered to go fight somewhere have anything to do with civilians hostage and mass murdering them because of their religion?

Because they were ordered to do it. You can't say "American soldiers are not responsible because they are just doing what they were ordered to do" and then refuse to apply that logic to any other soldiers.

[Greenday]

Because they were ordered to do it. You can't say "American soldiers are not responsible because they are just doing what they were ordered to do" and then refuse to apply that logic to any other soldiers.

I'm saying what the heck are you trying to hold them responsible for? American soldiers are fighting a war. German soldiers weren't at the death camps and concentration camps.

[jackfaire]

I'm saying what the heck are you trying to hold them responsible for? American soldiers are fighting a war. German soldiers weren't at the death camps and concentration camps.

War isn't a game. The soldiers at the front lines of any war are not going to shoot you with a paint ball gun they are killing you. Whether you think that is right or wrong that is what I hold them responsible for. Every life you take you take on your own.

Even if your superior officer tells you to shoot your the one pulling the trigger. Your the one who agreed to pull the trigger to put yourself in that position to pull the trigger.

My point with all of this is people seem to forget that no one for a long time has been drafted. These people chose this life and following orders or not that is not the excuse for their actions. If I kill a spider I killed it. Not my mom and dad. Not my teachers. Me I chose to take all that they have taught me and kill a spider.

No one controls my actions but me.

[AdminAssistant]

I'm saying what the heck are you trying to hold them responsible for? American soldiers are fighting a war. German soldiers weren't at the death camps and concentration camps.

The Kommandants and other administrative personnel were at the camps and they were part of the SS. Granted, most of the really 'dirty work' was done by Kapos and other "privileged prisoners". The SS were there...but honestly, what could they have done? Rebel and be sent to the guillotine? At that time, everybody was just trying to cover their own keisters.

The Holocaust is a different situation than anything else - long before the Final Solution there were years of incessant propaganda about how Jews were to blame for Germany's financial troubles, they were unneccessary eaters, etc. Also remember that a significant portion of Holocaust victims were Catholics, homosexuals, political prisoners, Roma Gyspsies, and anybody else Hitler didn't like that week.