Just following orders

[BroomJockey]

. German soldiers weren't at the death camps and concentration camps.

I hope this was a mistake, because they were absolutely at those. Who do you think was at the camps, if not the German army?

[Kalli]

I'm saying what the heck are you trying to hold them responsible for? American soldiers are fighting a war. German soldiers weren't at the death camps and concentration camps.

I'M saying, either ALL soldiers under a commander are responsible for their actions, or NONE are. You can't have it both ways.

[Boozy]

I hope this was a mistake, because they were absolutely at those. Who do you think was at the camps, if not the German army?

The main German army did not run the camps. They were run by the SS. The SS was paramilitary at best. They were essentially the enforcement arm of the Nazi party.

[BroomJockey]

The main German army did not run the camps.

Run? No. But the number of camps meant that the guards had to be regular army, since there were not enough SS members to have complete staffing. That's why when the war started to go badly, they liquidated camps they'd not originally planned on, so they could pull the soldiers to the fronts.

[Nyoibo]

What does getting ordered to go fight somewhere have anything to do with civilians hostage and mass murdering them because of their religion?

Welcome to the history of the world.

[Greenday]

I hope this was a mistake, because they were absolutely at those. Who do you think was at the camps, if not the German army?

It was a typo of a sort. I was kinda tired so I didn't type out my full thought. What I meant was that the German soldiers weren't fighting a war at the death camps and concentration camps.

[lordlundar]

"Any action you take in support of an illegal order makes you an accomplice of said order" - John Sheridan, Babylon 5 - S4E15, No Surrender, No Retreat

Yes, fiction, but the show's political stances all have a basis on historical and modern situations.

[Mr Slugger]

You know my take on it is this. If say tomorrow we went we're going to attack canada, because they're getting on our nerves and we need more space to spread out. And the army just went ok and did it. Then I would have a problem.

The reality is this (and don't jump down my throat before reading it all please ) they were told there was a threat in Iraq that they had to take care of. They saw pictures, they were given intel, and they were sent there to do the job. They got there they did the job found nothing, and now they're trying to fix the mistake. When in reality the guys in charge are the ones to blame, and not the lower ones that are in charge, the ones that got the intel, that made the decision, etc. And in their case sometimes it's a damned if you do in many ways.

I mean if they invaded Iraq and found everything they said their was we wouldn't be having this discussion at all I don't think. And if we left them alone and the weapons were there and they were used then we'd be having a whole different discussion. And we just let them be and nothing happened there would be nothing to discuss. And once a decision is made usually there's no "opps my bad maneuver" that can be done.

I mean if you came home and found a milk container filled with liquid and with some wires along with a timer coming out of it. The bomb squad comes out and says yeah it's a bomb. Then normal officer goes nah I think it's just a prank, let go. And they all follow his decision. Would you really want that to happen?

Believe me while I was for the Iraq war in the beginning I was pissed off pretty quickly when they found nothing, but the people I blame are the people who came up with the information that the soldiers went on and the person who gave the original order. Now if a solder is doing bad things to Iraqs because they or their commanding officer gets their kicks of doing things to them, then I'd fault the soldier.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

What I don't get is the lack of separation between soldiers fighting in Iraq and the guards at gitmo. It seems to me that the accusation is being made that if one part of an administration is committing a crime, everyone who works for that administration in any way, regardless of their capacity or distance from said crime, is also a criminal.

That, I don't get.

Let's break it down:

American soldier in Iraq is ordered to return fire when his convoy is ambushed, in the process killing one or more opponents.
Obviously not a war crime.

American soldier is ordered to torture a prisoner at gitmo and not tell anyone.
This is a war crime.

Likewise, a Nazi ordered to guard a building isn't committing a war crime, but an SS officer forcing prisoners to kill and dispose of other prisoner's is.

In both situations there is one person doing exactly what their job entails, completely within any and all treaties/conventions dealing with warfare. While another is committing a very real war crime either personally or through the coercion of another.

If you want to make the point that all soldiers whose actions directly result in the death of an adversary are murderers, feel free to argue that point... separately.

That's akin to saying that a cop who arrests a suspected criminal is culpable if that person is mistreated in prison. The crime lies with those who conspired and/or committed it alone.

So yes, a soldier who tortured someone in gitmo or blew up a house full of civilians on purpose in Iraq is not fighting for our freedom, not by a long shot.

But those who are in Iraq, doing their best to win there are doing nothing less than fighting for our freedom and that of the Iraqi citizens.

EDIT:
Also, everything Mr Slugger said.

[Mr Slugger]

Another point to bring up is that a soldier's job description sumed up is to go out and kill the enemy and keep peace. And the enemy is whoever the chief says is the enemy. The commanding officer's job is to order the soldiers to do their job. And his commander order him to do his job. All the way up the line.

Working in retail as a worker you're job is to work. You're bosses job is to manage (in all ways) the workers, and his boss makes sure they manage the lower bosses, etc. you get the picture.

Well higher up in retail job passes down fire 200 workers. Manager doesn't want to do that there's options. Either he quits, or he gets transferred and a manager that can do it gets brought in. (Which I've seen) That's about it.

Higher up in military passes out order to go to iraq. Lower commander doesn't want to obey orders he's replaced, and he goes to prison for disobeying orders.

Now while it's rare to find managers that won't fire alot of employees how much more rare would it be if you went to jail for not firing employees?

[jackfaire]

Being responsible for your own actions does not mean that you are right or wrong it means you made the decision to do what you did if that is obeying an order you are still the one that made that decision

[Flyndaran]

The U.S. has committed war crimes since its inception. It's just ugly now, because the morons take pictures of themselves doing it.

[BlaqueKatt]

the only thing I will say on this from my time in the military is:

some of you aren't aware that while a soldier is enlisted they are considered the property of the US government-yes they own you for your entire term of service-injuring a soldier in a bar fight can get you charged with "damaging government property". If a soldier gets a tattoo or injures themselves they can be charged as well. You have the right to disobey an UNLawful order, but during a time of war, disobeying a lawful order is charged as treason-punishable by death, not "jail time".

Soldiers have a totally separate set of laws to abide by-the UCMJ or unified code of military justice. At your job will cursing get you demoted and cause you to lose half your pay for two months? It will in the military, it's called an article 15. Yes just dropping a f-bomb, you can lose a month's pay, and lose up to two ranks.

[Flyndaran]

The point of a military is to make civilians into killing machines that follow orders without thinking.
I'm sure it's very difficult for someone to buck that without overwhelming reason.

Still, I don't like how following orders is an excuse for Americans to torture and murder but not for Nazis and others.

[Greenday]

Still, I don't like how following orders is an excuse for Americans to torture and murder but not for Nazis and others.

The Nazis were.

And the extreme majority of America soldiers don't do that kind of crap.