people getting tattoos they don't understand

[DesignFox]

Thread drift makes for delicious cake.

THE CAKE IS A LIE!

had to be said.

[jackfaire]

Why can't some group or culture choose to be insular? Why do they have to forced into 'sharing'?

I am not saying they can't I am saying though that if I admire and respect an aspect of a culture and adopt it for my own, ie I have been on vision quests, I don't see how it harms them that I did that.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

It's not that they have to be forced to share. It's that they can't keep anyone else from sharing.

[Slytovhand]

It's not that they have to be forced to share. It's that they can't keep anyone else from sharing.

I'm not quite sure how you meant that.

If you're saying "They can have theirs, but they should't stop other cultures from giving theirs away" - then I totally agree.

But, if you're saying "They can have their culture, but they must share it with others", then I'm totally opposed to it.

So, a bit confused .....

I don't see how it harms them that I did that.

Ummm... how about finding out?? You know - ask them? Or at the very least, grab a book written by one of their elders, and read what they have to say?

Granted, if you've vision quested, and you've been told it's ok, that should be quite alright... that's even more close to literally directly from the Horse's mouth..(or Coyote's.. or Bear's, or Eagles, or... yeah, you get me!)

[DesignFox]

I think what RK is saying is the culture may be insular and may not want to share, but it's gonna happen. You can tell people "don't do that" all you want, but the reality is you can't REALLY prevent them from doing it. You can discourage it, sure. Discouragement or disapproval may stop most people, but it's not going to stop everybody.

We have laws regarding stealing, doing certain types of drugs, rape, murder, etc. Does it stop EVERYBODY from committing crimes? Nope.

In the instance of someone getting a tattoo: is it really, honestly, HURTING anybody if someone gets a picture etched into themselves that comes from another culture? I mean, actually HARMING someone. Because sharing an ideal or misunderstanding an image from a tattoo isn't gonna start the next world war.

Is it really something worth getting your panties in a wad over? Sure, you may not want to share. Sure, it may bother you that someone outside "your" group borrowed from you. But, knowing that there's really little you can do in regards to the actions of others, and in this case, in regards to an action that is not illegal and not physically harming another person, is it worth getting bent out of shape about it?

In my opinion. No.

You just disassociate yourself with that person, ignore them, or if they happen to ask your opinion, be honest and walk away.

There are much bigger things in the world to get pissed off about than railing at the white kid who thought dream catchers looked cool.

At least these people are showing some appreciation for the art even if they don't understand all the religious or cultural associations. I'd say that's a lot better than not having *any* appreciation for their fellows ideals, or worse, purposely mocking them.

[jackfaire]

Ummm... how about finding out?? You know - ask them? Or at the very least, grab a book written by one of their elders, and read what they have to say?

Done and Done.

When I was a kid I went to a school named after Chief Joseph and it inspired me to study Native Americans I read as much as I could get my hands on when I was a kid. Did reports and such.

Did the vision quest when I was 17 and still haven't solved the question that formed out of my vision.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Thanks, DesignFox. Exactly.

[Slytovhand]

But DF, you've sort of just gone the route I was taking - and then done a U-turn on it.

"Is it really something worth getting your panties in a wad over? Sure, you may not want to share. Sure, it may bother you that someone outside "your" group borrowed from you. But, knowing that there's really little you can do in regards to the actions of others, and in this case, in regards to an action that is not illegal and not physically harming another person, is it worth getting bent out of shape about it?"

Yeah, I get what you're saying (we are in "Things I hate" after all...), and while getting a tattoo may fall outside the law (copyright infringement laws might be interesting in that regard!!), it is still a form of theft (as per the aforementioned copyright laws). Why would you get your panties in a knot about people going into your home and robbing you, taking your most emotionally-valuable items (even if it's only, say, a feather), and yet it's pretty much ok to steal from an entire society?

So, you're analogy is nice - yes, it is a form of robbery (as you went with in the beginning if a culture wants to be insular) - so why shouldn't we get uptight about it?

What's the harm with software piracy? Or file sharing? Or if you write a book, and someone then passes it off as their own for a major assignment in uni? You aren't getting harmed....

And, FTR, I think I have this idea of 'sacredness'. I was once a part of a coven, and the initiation process to continue involved saying the Christian's Lord's Prayer backwards. I refused - I see no sense in that. I'm not Christian (and never have been), but that's just.... silly!

[DesignFox]

The difference I see is that you aren't stealing anyone's physical valuables. You aren't invading their home. You aren't stealing software or music that someone took hours and hours and hours to create and is making their livelihood from.

It's a symbol. Drawn on someone's body. No one else even has to necessarily see it. And if you don't like it, you don't have to associate with that person.

Quite different from stealing actual objects or pieces of work. Although I can see where it might get interesting if you stole someone's artwork...I have seen artists around the internet design tattoos specifically for one client and say that no one else has permission to use those designs.

Hmmm. I guess in that regard, I can see your point. It would be like stealing from an artist. Unless every religion wants to go out and copyright their symbols, not sure much can be done about it.

Still not sure what those artists would do if someone else actually used the design...I mean, how would they find that person, unless they happened to have spotted them on the street?

But then, I think anybody doing hours and hours of searches and internet research probably isn't the type of person who is going to steal a design.

I imagine most of those types of people just walk in and pick something off the wall.

I guess I can see why it upsets some people, but I'm not one of them. Uncultured as I must be, I don't really care.

[KabeRinnaul]

Still not sure what those artists would do if someone else actually used the design...I mean, how would they find that person, unless they happened to have spotted them on the street?

The same way the vast majority of those sort of lawsuits get started - someone decides they should tell everyone they know about it, and eventually someone with an interest in the matter (like he's a lawyer who's firm handles the artists's studio or something) hears about it and then it's lawsuit time.

[Skelly]

Regarding spiderweb tattoos, I'd like to point out that they (AFAIK) were used in other circumstances before being associated with convicts. From what I've understood, they initially meant that you were trapped in an addiction, that you were spending so much time hanging at a bar stool that the spiders began to weave their webs around your elbows...just sayin'. I mean, if I want to wear a Mjolnir necklace, I will bloody well do that, despite the fact that various neo-nazi groups have tried to claim it as their own. Same with spiderwebs, and all the various convicts and nazis of the world can go to hell. Not that I have any room for it though. Both elbows are taken already .

[Amanita]

Cultural appropriation is a hot button for me. Why? Because among other things, I'm a textile fanatic. I truly love and admire the clothing worn by many different cultures, and time periods.
And yes, I proudly own and wear my own examples. I've got sari, kimono, a set of robes from Ghana, and patterns for Korean and Vietnamese garb. I'm also insatiably curious and a voracious reader, so in the process of learning about the garments I admire, I also learn something of the people who created them, and the history behind them. There's a beautiful bit of mythology surrounding the origin of the Sari, for example. And it's also pretty cool learning about the origins of Japanese clothing and culture. Early on, the Japanese admired the civilization that the Chinese had, and sought to have something similar. So they began borrowing en masse- classics of Chinese literature and philosophy, clothing styles, etc. Over time, what they had copied and borrowed evolved into something completely unique and different. I find these stories and histories fascinating, even if I'm not Japanese, Indian, or Chinese. The way I see it, we humans have been borrowing and copying from each other for as long as we've been around, even without the spectre of war or conquest. Why stop now?

I don't wear the garments to get attention. If all I wanted was attention, I'd start dressing like Paris Hilton, or copying some of the bizarre creations seen on high fashion runways. I wear the garments because they are beautiful, posessing an elegance and grace that modern western gowns and dresses just don't compare to. Seriously- white people's formal wear leaves me completely cold, even though I'm a white female. It doesn't speak to me at all.

I have not gotten insults or abuse for wearing ethnic clothing, in fact, I have had people compliment me. I think it's because of how I carry myself, wearing the garments like clothing, not a costume. I've had a lady at an SCA event tell me that there was something different about me in my Japanese persona's garb. She said that she had seen lots of white ladies playing Japanese personas, with even more elaborate outfits than mine, makeup and wigs included. But to her, they still looked like caucasian women trying to fake it. But then she said to me, "You're different somehow. You carry yourself differently, you move differently. The clothes suit you!".

So I disagree massively with the notion that because I'm not (insert culture or race here) that I can't ever touch, play with, or explore anyone else's stuff.

I do agree with Katt that if you're going to get a tattoo, you should at least know what it means. If you're not a native speaker of the language, get a couple of people who are to verify that the phrase or symbol means what you think it does.

About religious vs cultural symbols- As I said before, I've got no qualms about wearing a Sari. However, recently I was at an import shop that sells things from India and other nearby places. One thing that cought my eye was a stunning string of wooden and metal beads. They were labelled Krishna beads, with a card hanging next to them describing their history and use. It talked about the religious meaning of the beads, and the religious obligations ascibed to them, including how to show proper respect when wearing them. One of these conditions was that the wearer follow a strict vegan diet. Me being the meat lover that I am quickly decided that the beads were not for me. The Sari carries no specific religious behavior or burden, the beads did.

As for Kanji tattoos, I've had an idea for one for the longest time. The character for "Skyscraper" inscribed within the stylized outline of a towering building. Somehow, that design wouldn't look right written in english, no matter how pretty the lettering. But if I ever get it, I'm not going to get all pretentious, thinking that the simple act of having Kanji on me makes me more spiritual.

[BlaqueKatt]

As for Kanji tattoos, I've had an idea for one for the longest time. The character for "Skyscraper" inscribed within the stylized outline of a towering building.

well four different translation services onlline translated that word four different ways-none of them were a single character, some were 2, 3, or 4 characters-good luck with that.

[Amanita]

Online translation services are not always known for their accuracy, which is why they're about the LAST things I would rely on for a tattoo design in any language. I would go straight to a real live human who speaks and writes the language, where I can communicate the exact meaning I want. And I do know that the Japanese language has several words for "Skyscraper". The one I am looking for is written in english as "Matenrou". And as for the word taking a couple of characters to write, that's why it would most likely work well with the characters written vertically- skyscrapers tend to be rather vertical things, after all. I've got a bookmark somebody made for me with those characters- written vertically, they look quite lovely.

So I really don't consider myself to be on the same page as a girl who grabs a random character from a chinese menu because it looks cool, has it inked onto her, with no clue as to its meaning, and ends up with it saying "Spring roll". Or like at least one idiot who asked for the words "bad-ass motherfucker" in Kanji, and ended up with something totally different and non-sensical. I would not even try to translate english curse words and slang into Kanji, since so many of them are idioms which really don't take well to literal translations.

I think part of the reason that Kanji tattoos are so maligned IS the fact that most of the people who get them either can't be bothered to do the research and fact checking required, or they get them just to be trendy, with little thought as to the meaning. And then you get the pretentious twits who think that the mere act of getting Kanji ink makes them more spiritual.
Bah. I've always been an Urban Animist, and I've always been an admirer of Japanese arts and culture, ever since I was a kid. Even though I was a tomboy who turned her nose up at sundresses (still do!), I remember my mouth falling open in amazement when I saw a kimono for the first time. And in a way, the Kanji in a tattoo like the one I've thought about could be a subtle nod to the fact that nowadays, most of the truly spectacular skyscraper designs seem to be coming from Asia/the Middle East.