The direction CS has taken

[Rubystars]

When I first discovered Customers Suck, years ago, there were many wonderful articles that told stories from the perspective of workers having to deal with sucky customers.

There was even a section about "messing with customers" that gave various ways in which revenge had been taken on customers, such as setting down empty bags along with bags of merchandise in them to fool customers into leaving part of their order (if they'd been particularly sucky).

What wasn't a part of the site were things like "Praising Customers." Don't we hear enough of that BS from management?

When I've been checking the boards it seems like when someone posts a sucky customer story there are often people responding trying to say how the employee was sucky. I never thought that was the original intent of Customers Suck.

The original site didn't even have a message board, and just let people send in their stories, which may or may not be included. I thought a message board was a good addition as it allowed everyone to tell their stories, but now people do so at the peril of having asinine comments made trying to blame the employee for what happened to them.

Now I see some people taking the side of that bitch who took a hammer to Comcast equipment. If you're unhappy with service from a company, you switch companies. You don't go apeshit with a hammer, and that behavior certainly does not merit admiration!

The tone of customers suck has become so pro-customer lately that I have to wonder if many of the posters even work in service jobs.

I agree that many complaints about service have merit, but do they belong on customers suck?

This thread for example, would have been validly posted on another web site, but I don't think it belongs on CS:

http://www.customerssuck.com/board/s...ad.php?t=17505

I thought that CS was about the BS that employees have to put up with, not the BS that customers have to put up with!

[Boozy]

I don't see anything wrong with someone saying, "Hey, if you seem to be dealing with more sucky customers than usual, maybe you should take a look at what you're doing to handle these situations."

I've seen many stories on CS describing situations that have escalated quite quickly because of the employee stooping to the level of the customer. That can be tempting and sometimes fun, but it doesn't make our jobs any easier in the long run.

I have only been a member of CS for about a year, and I see it more as an online support group for those of us working in customer service. And support groups offer support, advice, and constructive criticism. I consider the members there to be my friends, and I would hope that if I screw up, my friends would have the courage to tell me as I would tell them.

I understand that the board may have been different in the past under different ownership. Obviously, it used to be one big bitch-fest where the customers were always wrong and the employees are always right. There's nothing wrong with that kind of forum - you can blow off a lot of steam that way.

But that's not what CS is now, and I for one am grateful. I never would have joined up if CS condoned immature revenge tactics or an "It's us against them!" mentality. Things aren't always so black and white.

[Rapscallion]

Aspects such as the praising customers section were put in to make sure we didn't think that only the site could keep us sane. There are decent customers out there - rare, but they do exist. A few stories of well-meaning people can bring pleasure into the lives of more than the person who experienced them in the first place. Pure constant negativity brings people down. One poster once complained that customers were daring to buy bread, forcing her to restock the shelves. Oh, the humanity!

With 5765 (at time of typing) threads in the Sucky Customers section, and 388 of those being in Praising and Oops, I don't see that the focus has left SCs (the next largest number of threads in any forum has yet to reach 1800). We're more inclusive of other elements, and the community's steadily growing. Some of the plans I have are areas for people to ask for advice on what they do, such as how to defuse a situation whereby they may end up in danger of physical harm. That can already be asked in GWC, and I would hope someone would be able to do so - that's a boon to the poster (as long as the advice is sound). It doesn't stop people posting about SCs - we're averaging over five hundred posts a day, but a year back it was around three hundred and fifty. (Yes, I sadly keep a record of this - it's a measure of the health of the board). If I cleared all readable posts from the SC forum a year back, when I returned home that evening the first page would have two-thirds of threads with new replies (or being new threads). It's often a case that it's onto the second page now, and my shifts are often roughly a couple of hours shorter. The threads are almost completely involving SCs.

There are natural extensions of work life that are discussed over the whole board. Without them, we'd lose peoples' interest, or if we had just one forum only for SCs then we'd have people posting links that should be in Off Topic or cursing out their colleagues - that would happen, but not in a separate area. It's a community, and as such it has to have several areas and aspects of life.

Should people ever take the customers' side? Sometimes, yes. I deleted one thread by a newcomer the other day wherein the main purpose was just bragging about how they found it funny to harass customers (the ones they didn't like) for a laugh. The effect of that? Thinking ahead, that same customer is likely to be worse to all members of staff in the future. Fine if you're the owner of your own store and want to be rid of someone, but you'd be doing your staff no favours if you weren't around and the same customer came back in. It's also doing your colleagues in the same position in the same industry no favours. I've even had to delete threads where people were bragging about hassling genuine customers - not SCs. Besides, sometimes there are factors that the poster hasn't considered. I've had things I've posted in the past challenged, and on some occasions I've changed my mind. Not often, because I'm usually awesome, but...

There are things we don't do on CS - some of these are for legal reasons. Leaving evidence on a message board that you helped to defraud someone - as in your example of the empty bags - is amusing, but it leave yourself open to legal trouble. It's unlikely, but it could happen. We certainly don't condone acting violently against customers (unless they swing first, and then it's fair game), and food tampering has long been a no-no. If someone came on and posted that they'd re-enacted the "Tastes like piss and flies, don't it?" from Clerks 2 on someone, I'd be wondering if I really wanted them to frequent the community I'm paying to upkeep. It's certainly not the image I'd want to portray to the world. I really don't want someone posting on there that they'd done an illegal act that they'd copied from the site and got sacked because they were caught.

The thread you mention is in the Sightings section - it was a forum idea I came up with when I saw that many people were posting in SC saying that they'd seen a customer acting up when they themselves were shopping, or they posted in Cursing out Coworkers that it wasn't their colleague, but... I'm pleased to say that it's a reasonably popular section of the site, all things considered. Some people really loved the idea - it certainly costs the server no measureable amount extra to host that extra part. However, by the logic you bring to the debate, the CoC and MiM sections should be looked at askance.

Sure, I put something up for managers in MiM. Did you know how many people are managers on the site? They get SCs as well. They also have staff who don't really want to work for them etc. It's all related to your main point - should CS have this on the site? Should we occasionally take the side of the customer? (I don't believe it's that often).

The short version is that I have to look at what people want. People are using the forums provided (some of the Community areas could do with trimming, but...), and I get very few complaints about the direction we're taking (I'm glad you feel able to speak up - if anyone agrees with you then they should join in). SCs will always be the focus of the site. While there are people screaming at cashiers, forcing them into tears, and while I am able to keep the site running without adverts and for all users who are able to work within common sense rules, the site will exist. I really don't think we're going down the route of understanding the broken homes suffered in childhood by every SC - some people are just scum. The woman in the story about Comcast is a vandal - plain and simple. If she was screwed by the company, that's a matter for a lawyer. Instead, she's just attracting her fifteen minutes of fame.

I occasionally go to less-moderated sites - the ones that are happy for people to be bitter and have no redeeming tales. It's not a pretty sight. One piece of advice I remember being given by Mr Slugger when I took over CS is that I should expect to have journalists contact us and ask about the content.

I'm proud of what we have. I'm pleased with the effort put in by the moderating team, each one working in their own time for the good of the community. If I'm approached by a curious journalist, I can say that the site encourages a responsible attitude, but doesn't compromise free speech (save in legal areas, and we don't have the First Amendment covering our bums at the current time). I love the fact that people can and will challenge people if they have acted irresponsibly, and I appreciate that fact that you can speak up and tell me you think something's wrong with that.

I pondered, during writing this, the idea of a section of the site where the rules would allow no dissension from the main post. I'd have to talk to the mods about this, and I'm not even certain that the idea could be made to work, but the thought is there. Any considerations from yourself on the idea?

Rapscallion

[Greenday]

I've been a member of Customers Suck since I was 15 years old. I'm turning 20 in March. I couldn't be happier with the way Customers Suck has gone. It was very enjoyable when Mr. Slugger was running it, and Raps has been doing an amazing job with it ever since he took over.

Sometimes I don't like what I see on the boards, be it certain threads or posts, but they are easily ignorable. Sometimes I don't agree with the mods decisions, but for the most part, they are very fair.

We have a vast community, full of people from all different sorts of backgrounds (For the most part. I haven't seen any really rich people posting. But I guess that's cause they don't deal with customers like we do.), with all different sorts of personalities. There are people from all over the world. So I always seem to learn something new from the other members.

Hell, if anything were to happen to Customers Suck, I don't know what I'd do. I spend so much time on there (kinda sounds sad, doesn't it?). But CS is a great place for me to get my feelings out as I'm pretty reserved in person. I can get great advice for my problems, and everyone manages to give me a new perspective on different situations. There really is, no place like Customers Suck.

[powerboy]

I love the boards, how they are now. I have been a member for about 3 years now, total. I love how everyone treats others with respect.

[Rubystars]

Rap, thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I don't think behavior such as revenge against customers should be condoned, but reading that story about the bags made me laugh, and helped get rid of some of the stress.

I enjoyed the "messing with customers" section, not so much because I would ever do those things (I wouldn't) but the ideas themselves were enough to make me laugh and de-stress. If someone is actually juvenile enough to hurt or defraud someone then that's their own stupidity. I know that you have to be careful about that though, because you can be held legally liable, so for that reason, I understand getting rid of that section.

What really set me off is that some posters had crossed the line by agreeing with the Comcast customer's actions. I'm glad you don't agree with them. When I read that thread I thought "how did CS ever come to this"? How can people who work in the service industry possibly agree with some customer coming to a workplace with a hammer and smashing things?

Furthermore no one has seemed to focus in on the part of the article that says that Comcast's records don't match up with this woman's service horror story.

Then I realized that I'd been annoyed by tone of some threads for a long time. Sure, we're all customers as well as employees, but I have to wonder why so many people feel compelled to write their sucky employee or sucky service stories from their perspective as a customer, rather than sucky customer stories from their perspective as a service employee.

What about those of us who really aren't very skilled at service, yet still have to work in service jobs until we can finish school/find something better/etc.? I am fairly good at service, simply from having a bit too much experience in it, but not as good as some people. I know this, try to work on it as long as I'm stuck in retail hell, and hope that when/if a customer does blow up on me, I won't get reamed out for it a second time on CS.

I agree that complaining about people buying bread is silly, but I empathize with the emotions behind it. It's frustrating to have an aisle zoned/straightened and then come back five minutes later and see that you have to do it all over again. Granted, it's what you're getting paid to do in that sort of job.

I get especially annoyed by children who think it's funny to push in a whole row of boxes which have to be pulled back out again, while their parents are standing next to them letting them do it.

Anyway, back to the topic of this thread.

I like the idea of there being a section where stories could be posted where there couldn't be anyone ripping the employee a new one for it.

I also like the idea of a feedback section where people who want feedback (maybe even me sometimes) because they don't know if they handled things right or not, could get some. This would be a more supportive type environment, IMO, because people would be asking for help, rather than just being criticized.

Your reply to me reminded me of how so many people really don't have common sense and have and will abuse the site if given too many loopholes. I think I understand better why some of the boards exist.

I guess my beef is more with a portion of the populace of CS these days than anything else. Some of them seem to want to justify any type of customer behavior.

I'm glad that the board is healthy, I just hope it doesn't lose its focus with its success. The post count statistics you mentioned do help me to feel somewhat better about the whole thing though.

[Rapscallion]

The comcast thing - I really don't have as much time as I'd like to devote to the site and get everything read thoroughly. I do read everything apart from PFB (that's never interested me, but members seem to like it), though I tend to skim. Their records don't match with her claims? Make sure it gets mentioned. Of course, if they ran a tighter ship and hadn't crapped on so many members, they would have had an easier ride. It's not the receptionist's fault that the company was dicking the woman around, so the assault and fear should not have been put on her, but the MiM and CoC sections show that not every company and employee is competent. Without reading further further, I can't comment much more on that one.

Getting reamed out on CS depends on what happened and how you reported it. If someone was just screaming and crying and shouting at you, and you broke and told them to fuck off, then reported it as being something you shouldn't have done, I'd be applauding. Sure, it's unprofessional, but they weren't really being professional themselves. In the same situation, pouring hot soup into their trousers would be assault. From my perspective, the site's not here to make people into better employees for the company - if it does that, then it's an advantage for someone who comes to learn and is better able to survive their day. I may set something up officially for people to ask advice about such things, but it would be for the advantage of the employee, not the company.

The bread story is a classic example at the thin end of the bell curve. The poster said the manager was shouting at her for not keeping the bread shelves full. Was this the manager's fault for being unreasonable or the forumer's fault for slacking off and not doing her job? I don't know, I wasn't there. What I do know is that the forumer decided it was the customers' fault for buying the stuff.

The self-help section is a definite (bug me if you don't see an announcement in a few days) - I'm still pondering the ramifications of the one-shot post thing. I'm trying to see how that would fit in with everything else, and whether or not it would be used enough.

Rapscallion

[rahmota]

Ruby: Speakign as an individual who is on the side against comcast and corporate america I'll say this about the comcast issue , customer/employee behavior/ and CS.com in that order.

Comcast is a large uncaring, unfeeling evil corporation that has a history of screwing over customers and little people. I will take anyone's side that is against them and damages them in anyway. Maybe the receptionist shouldnt have had to witnss what happens when peple get pushed past the point of no return she also shouldnt have put two old people out in the heat for the time she did. Also we dont know if the receptionist got an attitude or what. The report I read was all about trying to make Comcast out to be some kinda victim when they are the victimizer.

as for sucky customer or sucky employees there are both. I am on the side of whomever wasnt sucky. The wahmbulance comes for employees quite fequently as well. Company policies are set up to be against the customer and to protect the manager's bottom line bonus. I have seen instances on CS where I thought the emloyee was just being a lazy whiny rude jerk and instigated the suck. I have seen instances where I thought the company was setting thigns up to fail through their policies. I have seen instances where people have posted sightings that 'm going what was so sucky about that? I'm sory you may not agree about the way some people feel about these thigns. Last I checked we where still allowed to disagree. And if there are people coming out in favor of some little old lady doing some harmless hammer based redecorating maybe that should tell you how people are perceiving corporate america. I personally judge each and every instance I read about on its own merits and if I think the mploee was rude or sucky I might call them on it If I dont then I'll applaud them for their behavior.

As for CS itself I'll have to say that it is one of the best run sites I've been to. People are able to disagree, sometimes rather stridently, and yet as long as they dont cross a certain line established by raps then everyone can continue to coexist. At least civily if not peacefully. I'll admit I havent been a member all that long. maybe pushing a year but the place doesnt seem that bad or that there is a reason to worry.

[ArenaBoy]

I once posted of a sucky employee who wrote on my bag of purchases to get a haircut. Why did I post it? Because you don't comment on one's appearance when you're working and to some it's insulting. If anything it pissed me off that he had the nerve to do that. I also posted of a waitress who made a tactless comment right in front of my 92 year old great grandmother involving age.

Point being is that there are idiots everywhere. They will be that customer you deal with at work, that coworker who annoys everyone, the manager, your neighbor, or the person on a forum.

We complain about customers all the time, the site isn't called Customers Suck for nothing. We're also unfortunate enough to come across idiot employees. You know the coworker that a poster is bitching about? He/She is that sucky employee that some customers complain about. When I read that an employee stoops to a SC's level I think that they're both being sucky.

What you seem to think is that CS was better with stuff such as a Messing with Customers sub-forum. There's a lot of reasons that Raps may have did away with it. The press will interview CS, they always have and when there's content like that you have to account for the number of people who WILL take it seriously. Like it or not people are idiots and can sadly not see the difference between humor and seriousness.

Overall, I like CS. If you took away the customer service aspect of it, it is simply a forum complaining about stupid people. The customer aspect of it is that we see way too many idiots in extremely public places such as grocery stores and the like. I currently like the forum as the way it is. If you see a thread that you don't like or don't agree with. Post your say knowing that you will get others with opinions or don't read it.

[Ree]

Just out of curiosity, Raps, how much genuine hate mail does the site receive on a daily basis?

Do guests send feedback to you?

All I know is that, anytime we get linked somewhere, people check us out, and membership increases.
We must be doing something right.

[Rubystars]

The comcast thing - I really don't have as much time as I'd like to devote to the site and get everything read thoroughly. I do read everything apart from PFB (that's never interested me, but members seem to like it), though I tend to skim. Their records don't match with her claims? Make sure it gets mentioned.

If someone hasn't already, I'll go back and post about that. I guess I was just surprised that the condemnation wasn't more universal for her reactions, no matter how badly she'd been treated. I thought that as a community we agreed that sucky customers shouldn't be praised. I guess in such a large group of people though there will never be universal consensus.

Of course, if they ran a tighter ship and hadn't crapped on so many members, they would have had an easier ride. It's not the receptionist's fault that the company was dicking the woman around, so the assault and fear should not have been put on her, but the MiM and CoC sections show that not every company and employee is competent. Without reading further further, I can't comment much more on that one.

Fair enough. I think the story might have some elements of truth to it, but I doubt that they were sitting there for hours in the heat with a heart condition. It sounds a bit too martyr-like to me.

It reminds me of the people who come up to pharmacy windows or other places where they have to wait, and swear they've been waiting for HOURS, when they've just been there about 20 minutes.

If they were treated that way, there were more adult ways of handling it than going crazy with a hammer.

I've dealt with poor service before, from an internet company, from a restaurant where my food was tampered with (and we had just ordered normally through the drive through, like we always did), from a sporting goods store, etc. I don't think I've posted about these issues in any detail on CS though.

Getting reamed out on CS depends on what happened and how you reported it. If someone was just screaming and crying and shouting at you, and you broke and told them to fuck off, then reported it as being something you shouldn't have done, I'd be applauding. Sure, it's unprofessional, but they weren't really being professional themselves. In the same situation, pouring hot soup into their trousers would be assault.

I see what you mean and I understand the distinction. I tend to think of people as having common sense. Unfortunately I know a lot of people don't, and would actually do that kind of thing if it was allowed to be talked about. I was just thinking you probably have to filter out a lot of silly crap that gets posted and it'll probably be an even harder job when there are more posters.

From my perspective, the site's not here to make people into better employees for the company - if it does that, then it's an advantage for someone who comes to learn and is better able to survive their day. I may set something up officially for people to ask advice about such things, but it would be for the advantage of the employee, not the company.

That sounds like a good idea

The bread story is a classic example at the thin end of the bell curve. The poster said the manager was shouting at her for not keeping the bread shelves full. Was this the manager's fault for being unreasonable or the forumer's fault for slacking off and not doing her job? I don't know, I wasn't there. What I do know is that the forumer decided it was the customers' fault for buying the stuff.

Many service workers are really young and may not have the maturity to understand things like that. I guess she filled it, the customers messed it up, and the boss yelled at her, so it seemed logical to blame the customers, even though it wasn't really logical at all. She probably wouldn't have thought she was doing anything wrong if she were the one buying bread! Of course, she wouldn't be doing anything wrong, and neither were her customers.

This reminds me of a commercial for a restaurant I saw years ago, where kids got all you can eat shrimp (or something like that). A little girl is at the restaurant with her mom, and the mom tells her to try the shrimp. The girl eats them all, and then the waiter comes by and fills her plate again. The mom turns around to face the girl from talking with another adult at the table, and says "You could at least try one." The girl sighs, eats them all again, then the waiter comes back and fills the plate again, etc. It was very funny, because the mom kept wondering why the girl wouldn't even try them.

The self-help section is a definite (bug me if you don't see an announcement in a few days) - I'm still pondering the ramifications of the one-shot post thing. I'm trying to see how that would fit in with everything else, and whether or not it would be used enough.

I really like the first idea and I don't know if the second one would work or not really. It's cool of you to discuss this issue with me.

[NightAngel]

Now, see- this is a great thread and finally Fratching is being used for what it was intended. I just don't get WHY some people are so opposed to coming over here.

I've been on CS.com for many, many years. I was here back in the day when Mr. Slugger had the site and yes, things were different then. Back then, there were many times when I would have to take leave of the board because people were allowed to be much sharper of tounge and much ruder to each other. And you know what? It pissed me off. So, I'd leave- sometimes for months on end and then come back and see if the assholes were under control yet or not.

Why did it piss me off? Because I loved CS and I loved the people on CS and I hated that the community was allowed to damn near rip itself apart. I remember the old section for debates and hot topics and I also remember how often the "wars" would spill over into the other sections.

If Mr. Slugger had been the one who asked me to be a Mod on CS I would have said no. I'm not saying that Raps or anyone on the current team is perfect- because we're not. We make mistakes and we're human but we TRY. And, no we'll never be able to make every person happy every time. It's not possible- all we can do is what we think is right and then see what happens.

And for anyone who may wonder- I STILL love CS and the people on CS.
It surprises me just how much I do care, worry and think about all these people I've never met. I fret over you guys all the time...

[Rapscallion]

Hate mail - actually, I've had about two in what must be the thick end of two years. Both involved the 'contact us' form, and the only one I can remember involved a semi-literate disputing the facts of the Vinegar Boy saga. I think it was about that - it was hard to tell between the poo-flinging and the vast slabs of glistening bile he threw our way. I pity his keyboard. Can't remember what the other was about. Neither were from registered people.

I get a few bits and pieces of praise, so I stick them up in the Mod section. They're rare, but appreciated by all on the team.

One of the advantages I have in my way of doing things is no reliance on other people or sources of advertising revenue. Mr Slugger had people complaining about the adverts he was forced to run to break even, and he had people paying for subscriptions who would then feel they were able to do as they wished. I can't remember if he had to refund anyone, but I can amuse myself running things as we like.

Self-help is up - I may kick it off with a couple of threads for people to comment in. Still pondering the other one.

Rapscallion

[Rubystars]

I don't understand why people can't come over here either. It's not difficult, and it helps harmony a lot on the board itself.

Plus it's always fun to have another place to rant.

I never meant to criticize the way the board was run per se, but more to criticize how the population seems to be more pro-customer than they used to be. That's what was frustrating me.

I was concerned about a situation like this. Let's say that someone like the lady who started that thread I linked to earlier posts a customer service horror story. What if the employee in that situation would like to post about it from their perspective? Would they feel comfortable doing so after such a thread?

I imagine they threw the girl out there with no training whatsoever and they expected her to just learn on her feet. Most people need some kind of directions to get started. She knew about as much as any of her customers about where things were because she wasn't told. The lines were backing up, she was getting nervous, trying to keep her cool. She didn't know where anything was because the morons in management hadn't told her. In the mean time, customers like the poster are getting angry, making her even more nervous and embarassed.

When the manager takes over, he deals with the customer (poorly), then turns around and yells at her after the customer is gone, embarassing her more.

What if she went to CS to post about it, and found that thread, and was then too embarassed to post about it, now that she's been made to look like a fool by the customer she tried to help? Maybe she wasn't slow in the head at all, maybe she was just going super slow because she had no idea what she was supposed to do, and it wasn't her fault? I'm sure the last thing she would expect on CS is to find her customer de-stressing about her rather than being given a chance to talk about what happened before the population was poisoned against her.

Whenever someone posts a service horror story it could prevent the one on the other end from feeling comfortable about posting their side. Most SCs feel they've been the ones abused, whether it's true or not, and it's usually not.

[Ree]

You make a good point, and I can see that scenario, but I think CS is set up that new people don't feel discouraged to post those kinds of stories.

If that new person posted her situation - that she was a trainee thrown to the wolves - then the members would be unanimous in their support of her, and contempt for the management, and put the blame where it really lies. In that case, it's not with the customer.

I would hope that new person, rather than being afraid to post, might come away from CS with some pretty good advice to help cope in that situation again.

I think it's important to recognize that not all customers are sucky, and sometimes, it really is the attitude of the employee that brings out the suckiness.

I have been in retail for close to 30 years, and when I am a customer, I am always aware of how I am treating those who serve me.
There have been times, though, when I have approached them with my sunniest, most positive face, only to be greeted with sullen, contemptuous disdain, and that's when my blood boils and I turn into sucky customer mode.
In reality, though, I am not sucky.
I am simply demanding from that person, the kind of service that I would give them in the reverse situation.

I will approach a manager to complain, and I will say something to the person waiting on me.

I think you're correct that CS now has less of a total anti-customer slant, and more of an acknowledgement that "customer" is not a dirty word.

I think it creates a better balance.