Comparing homosexuality to vegetarianism

[linguist]

But a gay relationship is about sex. It would not exist if they did not want to have sex with each other, just like people with other fetishes have to agree on what kind of sex they want for it to work.

all romantic relationships, gay or straight, are based on an initial attraction which is largely based on sex. beyond that initial attraction, there is much more to a relationship than sex.

Straight sex is not a fetish because creatures, human or otherwise, have straight sex by default in order to make their species live on.

so are straight couples who choose not to/are unable to have children engaging in fetish sex, since they won't be prolonging the species?

and for the record, there are multiple examples in nature of homosexual sex.

[elsporko]

Those examples are still not the norm, which means it is still a fetish, just a cross species fetish

[linguist]

so are you going to actually answer my question, or just avoid it?

[the_std]

Mine too. I'm still wondering why a fetish means marriage is okay to deny.

[Greenday]

Mine too. I'm still wondering why a fetish means marriage is okay to deny.

Why is homosexuality, if it can really be considered a fetish, the ONLY fetish to prevent people from being married?

[elsporko]

It isn't the only fetish preventing people from getting married. A person with a fetish for children can't marry children or a person with a fetish for tailpipes can't marry a car.

[Boozy]

I hate to be that person (people who break out the dictionary in the middle of a debate annoy me sometimes) but here it seems necessary:


Fetish
-noun
1. an object regarded with awe as being the embodiment or habitation of a potent spirit or as having magical potency.
2. any object, idea, etc., eliciting unquestioning reverence, respect, or devotion: to make a fetish of high grades.
3. Psychology. any object or nongenital part of the body that causes a habitual erotic response or fixation.

Homosexuality is not a fetish in any sense of the word.

[McDreidel09]

Plus,homosexuality was taken off the fetish list in the DSM...forget which number. That was years ago.

I'm a masochist. I like to be choked,smacked around,told what to do, and call the person my master IN THE BEDROOM. That is a fetish. Should I not have my marriage because of that?

[Skunkle]

Elsporko, I can start by discussing purely mechanical terms, all emotion aside: Nature, God, whichever force you believe in, needs to work with our population explosion. The world is quickly becoming overcrowded, and people keep on rutting like rabbits. Is it not possible that having a portion of the population born to not reproduce could curb this?

When you say that, were many of us gay, our population would collapse and we wouldn't survive, you're quite correct. But near as we can tell, the portion of the population which identifies as gay is less than - possibly far less than - a quarter. Our numbers are not in jeopardy. And as far as we know, won't be, as it seems the number of gay men isn't increasing. However, the number of gay men admitting that they're gay IS. In the past, they were "bachelors". Men in their 20s, then 30s, then 40s and so on, still bachelors...living their gay life under the radar as best they could.

Now, addressing the fetish side: A fetish, by definition, is an attraction to an act, an object, a part of the body or a situation or happening which, in and of itself, is not sexual in nature. By definition, any sex related directly to attraction to a certain set of genitals is not a fetish. But further, my attraction is not transferrable; you could not slap a dick and balls onto a female body, erase the boobs, and have me attracted to it. I am attracted only to men, and sex doesn't necessarily factor in as I've had a very deep, romantic relationship with another man that involved no sexual contact or acts whatsoever - and I'm by no means the only one. There are 100% celibate men out there who are gay and in committed relationships (and straight men who are that way as well).

Another note to make here: A "breast man" can, and they often do, suddenly decide they're an "ass man", and vice-versa. Gay men, lesbian women, do not suddenly realize they're no longer attracted to the same sex. Many hide their true nature so as to "fit in", yes; we call this "being in the closet" (don't ask me why, I have no idea). What about ex-gay treatment? The only "ex-gay" treatments known involve aversion therapy, by which the subject is psychologically conditioned to no longer like men, for example, by showing them naked men and (pick one) giving mild shocks, introducing sickness-inducing aromas or pills etc. In some cases, they are then shown heterosexual pornography and given some sort of aids to induce arousal. These "treatments" don't work, have never proven themselves... In known cases, the subject finds himself both revolted by men but unattracted by women.

As to marriage, we don't want "marriage" for the word. We want to be able to join up as legally-recognized partners, and have the same legal rights. Fetishes: A guy can marry a fat chick. A guy can marry a dominatrix. A guy can marry any kind of WOMAN he wants. But two consenting, adult men cannot marry. Why not? A man cannot marry an animal; an animal cannot consent. A man cannot marry a child; a child cannot legally consent. A man cannot marry a pillow; a pillow is not a living being. But two men, who are living, sentient legal adults, cannot marry.

I'm curious, though, elsporko: Where has your information come from? A lot of the arguments I hear are from religious types; I've got faith that the God in which I believe has no qualms with any loving relationship between consenting adults. All I want is to be able to join with my partner, live together as a legally-recognized couple, and...

...as for "keeping it in the bedroom"... I go out to a club, or bar, I get to hear guys bragging about how hard they banged this chick last night, or how big that cheerleader's hooters are. Does it bother me? Long as there aren't kids around, no, not in the slightest. So why do I get nasty looks if my guy and I hold hands in public? "You shouldn't be forcing it on kids!" Forcing what? The sexual perversion of holding hands? It isn't like we're sucking face with our hands down each others' pants. Yes, straight guys/girls DO do that sometimes - and they get deserved nasty glares, too. Get a room.

Edit: Others got it in before me. By actual, proper definition, homosexuality does not constitute a fetish. And of course, male partnerships have been spoken about in ancient texts; this isn't a new thing. I'm 100% certain that, as long as man has paired up with woman, somewhere man has paired up with man. And once again, I don't generally call myself "homosexual" because it ISN'T solely about who I have sex with. It's about attraction and connection, of which sex is only a part.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Moreover, that which is uncommon isn't necessarily unnatural. Natural means that which occurs significantly without deliberate intervention, homosexuality occurs often enough to be considered significant and is therefore a natural phenomena.

Further still, this country is founded on the principle that the majority may rule, but the minority retains it's rights. For this reason, legislating against a group based on their lack of numbers is at best unconstitutional.

And yet, I wonder why we're spending any time at all trying to get answers out of elsporko, as they don't seem to be forthcoming aside from illogical one-liners...

[Skunkle]

I would aghree that, generally, those who firmly believe being gay is unnatural usually cannot be persuaded to believe otherwise. And as much time as I may use trying to convince someone, as long as they don't personally try to make sure I can't get married to my intended life partner, I don't have any issues with them believing what they like. Just allow me the same exact rights held by other couples. "It isn't natural" isn't backed-up or supported by anything but "It just isn't, and that's the way it is", which doesn't give me a reason that one consenting adult of either gender can't marry another consenting adult of either gender.

...oh, and then there are the guys who profess to believe being gay is wrong, icky and bad, but still think lesbians are hot...

[Ghel]

We talk about it, not for elsporko's benefit, because it doesn't seem like he'll ever listen to reason, but for those lurkers who are undecided about where they sit on the issue. If we can explain the real issues behind the discrimination and the same-sex marriage debate, then those who are actually listening might benefit. But you're right - it's unlikely anybody will get elsporko to change his views. He can't see over the edges of the rut he's in.

BTW, I made some comments earlier, but you guys said it more completely and more elegantly than I ever could.

[Nyoibo]

Plus,homosexuality was taken off the fetish list in the DSM...forget which number. That was years ago.

Mental illness list, I don't think it was ever classed as a fetish, but was classed as a mental illness for a while.

[Skunkle]

Correct, it was classed by the American Psychiatric Association as a mental illness until 1975. Western society did think of it as a "disorder", as something "wrong with you", but then, such was the thinking with other things, too. Loads of things used to get someone tossed into a mental health facility.

[McDreidel09]

Mental illness list, I don't think it was ever classed as a fetish, but was classed as a mental illness for a while.

It was classified as a fetish after it was taken off the mental illness list. Then it got taken off. Those are one of the few things I remember from my Psychology text book last semester. It mentioned the stuff that was classified as a fetish (because according to the DSM, I have a fetish) and it said that homosexuality used to be on the list, but was taken off.