ATF sucks

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Thorough evidence that the agents involved in this incident have absolutely no idea what they're doing.

These replica's broke regulation in that they didn't have orange tips. Other than that they are as, if not more, harmless than any BB gun. There is literally no way these could fire real amunition, even with extensive, professional modification. At which point, there are only one or two original pieces left of the Airsoft gun, no purpose exists to do this.

It makes me wonder why we even have these jokers. Illegal weapons are worming their way into and out of the country on a regular basis and they choose to sieze a shipment of toys... I mean, WTF? This is the sort of epicly retarded crap that's going to get the sport banned by some dumbass politician and the ignorant fleebs that support their every douchy 'public safety' law...

[/rant]

thoughts?

[Greenday]

Well, customs probably did a spot check, saw what looked like guns (which obviously seems to be their purpose), called in the ATF who had to check them.

Dumb reasoning for destroying them. But yea...

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Except they didn't just destroy them for looking real, they claimed that they could be 'converted to fire live ammunition with minimal modification' which is incredibly serious...

[Greenday]

Except they didn't just destroy them for looking real, they claimed that they could be 'converted to fire live ammunition with minimal modification' which is incredibly serious...

Yea, that part is stupid. They still were not regulation though.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

The company broke the rules, that's not in question. The problem is that things like this have to potential to strike many people's paranoia and convince them that Airsofters country-wide are converting their replicas into real assault rifles and shooting up their schools...

[Vagabond]

Now, I'm no expert, but a Airsoft gun, which is kin to BB guns, is a hell of a lot different from a gun designed to shoot real bullets. The modifications would probably be more expensive than just buying a real gun in the first place.

And, yeah, if I saw someone with that walking down the street, I'd be worried, orange tip or no. Unless I saw them near an Airsoft range and/or wearing Airsoft gear, pads, masks, etc.

[MadMike]

And, yeah, if I saw someone with that walking down the street, I'd be worried, orange tip or no.

So according to the ATF, orange tip = fake gun and no orange tip means real gun? I guess if you want to carry a real gun around the city in broad daylight, all you have to do is pain the tip orange.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

So according to the ATF, orange tip = fake gun and no orange tip means real gun? I guess if you want to carry a real gun around the city in broad daylight, all you have to do is pain the tip orange.

Believe it or not, that's happened before. Why LEOs don't give such markings that much credence.

[Shangri-laschild]

So according to the ATF, orange tip = fake gun and no orange tip means real gun? I guess if you want to carry a real gun around the city in broad daylight, all you have to do is pain the tip orange.

I believe there are actually some laws about that and that if you get a fake gun that has that orange tip, it's illegal to remove it or paint it black. Might not be treated any different than speeding being illegal, I don't know, but I am sure that there are laws that relate to those orange tips.

[Tanasi]

I believe there are actually some laws about that and that if you get a fake gun that has that orange tip, it's illegal to remove it or paint it black. Might not be treated any different than speeding being illegal, I don't know, but I am sure that there are laws that relate to those orange tips.

That's dependent upon the state. Here the airsoft crowd paints over the orange. Also a few months ago a local loon in the Nashville area while wearing his cami-jammies painted the muzzle and front sight on his AK-pistol orange and then using his carry permit carried said AK-pistol into a state park (it's legal). After some complaints from other park patrons Park Ranger Smith drew down on him and cuffed him until he could assertain if the AK-pistol was legal and his carry permit was in good standing. Well it turned out he wasn't breaking any laws and was released. Now this guy is filing a civil-rights suit against the state. I'm a big believer in right to carry and T2A but you gotta have a just a smidge of common sense and not disturb the masses, heck he would have made me nervous. I hope I get called for his jury I'll vote against him on the grounds of his shear stupidity.

Winny any gun real or replica that it is possible to convert to a functioning fire-arm is by US code a firearm. Using the picture do you really think those toys are capable of taking a real AR barrel, bolt and trigger group? I doubt it but if the ATF fellow can sit down with the correct parts and make it work then they have a case (at least IMO.)

[Wingates_Hellsing]

If he could, I would be on his side, except that he couldn't. Didn't even try. This sort of thing has been happening more or less everywhere, some drone who doesn't actually have any firearms knowledge stumbles across a shipment of replicas and bullshits something to have them destroyed.

Sometimes they claim convertibility, sometimes they rip the orange tips off and claim infringement, either way there's basically 0% accountability, little or no way to dispute the decision and actual experts are rarely involved.

I'd imagine it's if anything worse in the UK what with VCRA, even with the UKARA exemption.

[Tanasi]

The owners have to make the decision if the litigation is worth the cost. BATF can't just declare the toys bogus and that be that. At the very least you get a turn at an Admin Judge and if you want to take it further you can appeal but I think you have to post a bond to do so. The judge will make them prove the conversion.
BATF tries to pass along a line of BS hoping to run across someone(s) that are ignorant of the law. In the past they have tried to say pocession of one M-16 part and ownership of an AR-15 constitutes a machine gun. They put some people in jail with this until they ran across a guy with the money to fight them. He proved his AR couldn't be converted without the use of a machine shop and the judge found in his favor. Several folks got out of jail because of that ruling.
None-the-less it's still best to fly under the radar. They're very much aware of me but I only operate on the up-and-up and within the law.

[BlaqueKatt]

I doubt it but if the ATF fellow can sit down with the correct parts and make it work then they have a case (at least IMO.)

yeah one case like that the ATF agent had to remote operate the cobbled together "firearm"-why? Well because it wasn't safe to be in the same room with it after the 15+ hours it took to "modify it". Remember the ATF at one time classified a shoelace as a machine gun. Yes just a shoelace-nothing else...

And the law(and ATF) states "easily convertible" not "have a fully-stocked machine shop to manufacture the needed parts to convert"

The ATFs firearms testing procedures are scientifically invalid

For instance, in attempting to “prove” that a semi-automatic firearm is, or can easily be made, full-auto, ATF “experts” have been known to attach a variety of devices to the gun being tested. They commonly, for instance, fasten new parts to the firearm or remove parts from the firearm, then hold the resulting device together with duct tape, plastic cable ties, or small metal bars before test firing it. They use these aids because otherwise the components of the jury-rigged test weapon will not hold together on their own. Such a device would be useless in the real world, yet the ATF freely uses these Rube Goldberg contraptions to “prove” that a weapon is illegal, and that the original maker or owner of the firearm is committing a federal crime!

[insertNameHere]

Well the guns most be real because they look real. Most people have no idea what gun laws really are or the fact that certain things are legal.

In ohio open carry is legal, no permit needed. I work at convinence store and mentioned to my one boss I couldn't believe the uptight people we serve have people willing to OC. He flipped out and wondered when the cops were coming, I told him it legal, he had to google it. Also he claimed that the guy still broke the law because we are posted.... just so you know there is nothing on our door or giant wall of windows that says no guns, but in small writing we do have that employees can't open the safe.

also, silencers ARE LEGAL, in many states, just you can't hunt with them in most it sounds like and you have to pay $200 for the tax stamp on it.

[Tanasi]

yeah one case like that the ATF agent had to remote operate the cobbled together "firearm"-why? Well because it wasn't safe to be in the same room with it after the 15+ hours it took to "modify it". Remember the ATF at one time classified a shoelace as a machine gun. Yes just a shoelace-nothing else...

And the law(and ATF) states "easily convertible" not "have a fully-stocked machine shop to manufacture the needed parts to convert"

The ATFs firearms testing procedures are scientifically invalid

For instance, in attempting to “prove” that a semi-automatic firearm is, or can easily be made, full-auto, ATF “experts” have been known to attach a variety of devices to the gun being tested. They commonly, for instance, fasten new parts to the firearm or remove parts from the firearm, then hold the resulting device together with duct tape, plastic cable ties, or small metal bars before test firing it. They use these aids because otherwise the components of the jury-rigged test weapon will not hold together on their own. Such a device would be useless in the real world, yet the ATF freely uses these Rube Goldberg contraptions to “prove” that a weapon is illegal, and that the original maker or owner of the firearm is committing a federal crime!

I'm well aware of the steps ATF will take. In cases like you linked to justice can be "bought" with a real good attorney and a knowledgable judge. Again it's just a matter of money.
At the Shot Show the BATFE booth is one of the more popular and crowed booths because they bring the DC muckity-mucks whose opinions matter. I've also been told that at the Knob Creek MG shoots every fourth person is an ATF agent. All the ATF folks I've had dealings with have been polite, fairly competitent but all professional.

Well the guns most be real because they look real. Most people have no idea what gun laws really are or the fact that certain things are legal.

In ohio open carry is legal, no permit needed. I work at convinence store and mentioned to my one boss I couldn't believe the uptight people we serve have people willing to OC. He flipped out and wondered when the cops were coming, I told him it legal, he had to google it. Also he claimed that the guy still broke the law because we are posted.... just so you know there is nothing on our door or giant wall of windows that says no guns, but in small writing we do have that employees can't open the safe.

also, silencers ARE LEGAL, in many states, just you can't hunt with them in most it sounds like and you have to pay $200 for the tax stamp on it.

Here (TN) even open carry requires a carry permit. I usually don't open carry because it makes folks nervous and usually involves the LEOs showing up. Also if places are posted no carry then there is a state law regarding that, if the state law is not followed then the violation is dismissed. One of my customers have a small sticker on their outside entrance that simply says "No guns allowed" the problem is the sign does not comply and most of their customers enter through an adjacent business where the sticker doesn't exist and if it did it would be backwards because the doors are proped open. I have no problems with folks that do not want firearms in their places that's their right. I do think they need to post it as the law requires so the unknowing and igornant do not break the law. That being said I generally don't frequent places that prohibit carry because I don't like leaving mine in the car.

Silencers are considered Class-3 and the $200 tax stamp is required, just as machine guns, short barreled rifles and shotguns. Some states ban Class 3 stuff but most don't. Flame Throwers for the most part are considered agriculture equipment and if you want one all you have to have is opportunity and money to get one. I inheirted mine.