What is it about tipping?

[Boozy]

I didn't really know where to put this. I chose this forum because I have grown to despise tipping threads on CS. Once I see a thread turn in that direction, its like a slow-motion train wreck: you can see it coming a mile off, but you're powerless to stop it.

Its always been a mystery to me why the tipping threads go downhill so quickly over at CS. I would have thought we'd all be on the same page over there, but somehow arguments still happen.

How is it that with all the war, disease, religious strife, and racism in the world today do people manage to find the energy to get so vehement about this? What's the "hot topic" appeal here?

[Seshat]

I think it's that in the cultures most of us are from, we expect the price listed on the price tag to be the price of the item. In US restaurants, the price tag is the menu - but the price on the menu isn't the full cost, and the full cost isn't stated anywhere. Even many people in the US are unaware that US servers aren't given minimum wage and rely on tips.

Add cultural confusion: in Australia, and (I think) the UK, service industry people are paid a wage by their employer, and the cost on the 'price tag' is the full cost of the service. Tipping is entirely optional. And in these threads, it's only the people who've been around this a few times that remember to specifically state their culture-of-origin.

Mix well, add a dash of people not writing clearly, flavour with people not always reading a post completely, spice with tempers and bad moods, and voila, you have a thread going down the gurgler.

[powerboy]

I feel that 15% should be automatically added onto the receipt. That way everyone tips. And that every member of staff from the cooks to the dishwashers gets it.

[Seshat]

In non-tipping cultures, powerboy, that's sort of what happens. The price of the meal is higher, but the servers' pay is included.

There's usually no host, because there's not the intense need to split the restaurant into sections and no need to ensure everyone gets a fair share of the patronage.

I presume the servers tend to have 'these tables are my responsibility, those tables are hers', because I usually get a consistent server. However, if my server goes home or goes on break while I'm eating, their replacement just smoothly picks up my table.

The restaurant pays the servers a wage, and the standard benefits for casual, part-time or full-time employees.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Depends on the restaurant; if service is included it's put clearly on the receipt. Most places I've eaten at have "service not included" which I prefer cuz that way if the waiter/waitress is a terrible server, then they don't get rewarded for being crap.

In England, the general view is to tip good service, but waiters/waitresses get paid a decent wage. Tips are just the icing on the cake.

[Seshat]

I've never seen 'service included' put on a receipt here - but then, I've never seen a 'service not included' anywhere either. I believe that here, servers MUST be paid by the restaurant. There's no option to have them as tipped employees.

[AFPheonix]

All servers are paid at state minimum wage at least to start in this state. However, I still tip at least the minimum because I know most servers get absolute shit for health benefits.

[DesignFox]

I understand why some US people may get bent out of shape on the topic- seeing as servers here literally get paid pennies on the hour (I consider anything less than minimum wage to be pennies). Tipping is how they make their money.

However, I don't understand how these people get so vehement about it when others from across the pond explain that in their country, their servers get PAID a living wage and tips are not required. So, in their country, they only tip for exceptional service and if they have the extra cash.

To me, that explanation is completely rational and reasonable. I don't understand why it isn't for other members, or why conversation just doesn't stop and move on once we all get an understanding of each other's customs. Not all of our cultures are the same, which is what makes some of these discussions so interesting. (and this should go on the flip side, too. If someone from a country where tipping isn't expected asks why the person is upset, that person's explanation should serve for them, too. That person may not agree with our custom, but that's just the way it is here.)

I think the system here is a load of bunk, but it is what it is. I tip accordingly.

[Seshat]

My guess is that in many of these conversations, people don't think to prefix their statement with 'service is/is not included in the menu price in my country'. If we all made a habit of stating that - or something akin to that - in all our posts re tipping, we'd have a lot less angst and confusion.

Hm. Might be worth having a tipping FAQ somewhere, that explains the basics, so as soon as one of these threads starts to go off the rails, someone can point to the FAQ and say 'everyone calm down, look at this, and realise where the other posters are coming from'.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Maybe have a little flag gif next to the various culture customs for easier understanding?

[AFPheonix]

That might not be a bad idea. Perhaps some flag emoticons or something. SA has a few to use in ironic posts, but it does help for people to figure out where other posters are coming from, literally.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Like this?



I'm sure someone with a nifty editing programme could make variations on the theme. ^^

[daleduke17]

My theory on the whole minimum wage thing is that there should be one minimum wage. Either make it entirely a state-driven thing where the states pick the minimum wage, or a federal one where the US Government picks the number. None of this "well, the federal is this...the state says we have to pay more, but if you're a server, we can pay you less. But you have to claim your tips."

Sorry, Charlie. If the minimum wage is 7.50, then everyone gets paid 7.50. Waiters, bussers, washers, everyone. I know prices may have to go up, but, I haven't seen McDonalds or Caseys or wherever I spend my money have to raise their prices due to the minimum wage increase. $4.20 is not a wage to be paid to employees (Illinois' current tipped minimum wage). Hell, 10 years ago I was making more than that (I was at 5.15 - minimum wage then) as a pizza driver and getting to collect ALL of my tips.

Are tipped employees only worth 56% of a regular employee? No. They are worth the same. That was one of the few things my boss at the pizza place did correctly. Everyone made minimum wage and got to keep all of their tips. Now if only he hadn't gotten caught smoking pot and looking at child porn...

[Boozy]

When I waitressed, I got paid a dollar an hour more than minimum wage AND I kept all my tips.

The owners understood that they needed to pay better wages to get good people.

Thank god, because the tips at that cafe sucked. 80% of our customers were elderly, and about half of those apparently thought that a shiny quarter was still worth something.

[Seshat]

My theory on the whole minimum wage thing is that there should be one minimum wage. Either make it entirely a state-driven thing where the states pick the minimum wage, or a federal one where the US Government picks the number. None of this "well, the federal is this...the state says we have to pay more, but if you're a server, we can pay you less. But you have to claim your tips."

I agree on the point that the servers should get at least minimum wage, but I disagree on the point that minimum wage shouldn't vary across regions.

I understand the arguments both for and against tipping-wages, my personal preference is 'against'. I think we covered those arguments - at least roughly - in this thread already. So I won't address the tipping-wage thing, just the variable-minimum wage.

The purpose of a minimum wage is to (attempt to) ensure that everyone is paid a living wage. The concept of the living wage is, in short, 'anyone who works a reasonable number of hours should be paid enough to have a reasonable standard of living'. You can see an expanded version of the concept in the Poverty thread in (I think) Social Woes.

Thus, minimum wage is supposed to enable a person to have a plain apartment in good repair, in a neighbourhood where you can walk the streets safely. It's supposed to enable you to purchase food that doesn't make a nutritionist wince - you might get bored with carrots, but at least you're healthy. Most social-justice advocates say it should include necessary medical care: again, to plain-but-adequate level. The US government seems to disagree.

Other aspects of life are covered by the concept of a living wage, and theoretically covered by minimum wage: clothing (plain but adequate), safety gear, education, transport (to and from work, school, shopping, etc).

The dollar value of this basic-but-healthy level of living varies from city to city, and from state to state. It varies even more sharply if you look at urban vs rural, as does what is cheap and what is expensive: rural people tend to find it much easier than city people to get cheap fruit and veg, but much harder to get cheap transport.

Therefore, I agree with using whatever techniques work to ensure everyone has a living wage. Varying the minimum wage based on geographical location is one such way. Another is Australia's funky way of dealing with the medical cost of living: anyone below a certain income gets a special card, and that card entitles them to an additional subsidy on medical care.

Oh: in case it wasn't clear, I believe that anyone who is healthy enough to do so, and getting benefit from society, should be contributing to society. I also believe that anyone who strives to contribute to society by a reasonable amount should be getting at least a living wage.
Contributions to society, in my mind, include paid work, study, volunteer work, and attempting to recover from or adapt to illness or disability.