"proud to be an American"

[bunnyboy]

What Smiley is talking about here is the blind patriotism (sometimes bordering on nationalism) that seems to have really cropped up since 9/11. You know the bumper sticker quotes of love it or leave it, and chants of move to France when you dare raise any voice of opposition to a war. Not real patriotism which is love of country.

Fake or Blind Patriot: Keeps a bumper sticker on his (insert gas guzzling car), has mini American Flags all over, but would never dream of EVER fighting for his freedom.

Real patriot: does something more than consume consume consume even if it is questioning the government, and if given a chance would rise up to defend his country, even from a government run amok.

And to put this in perspective a quote.

Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.
-Samuel Clemens

[Hobbs]

I would also offer these quotes

My country owes me nothing. It gave me, as it gives every boy and girl, a chance. It gave me schooling, independence of action, opportunity for service and honor. In no other land could a boy from a country village, without inheritance or influential friends, look forward with unbounded hope.
-Herbert Hoover

"In matters of foreign affairs, my country may she ever be right, but right or wrong, my country, my country."
-Stephen Decatur

[the_std]

In no other land could a boy from a country village, without inheritance or influential friends, look forward with unbounded hope.

I call bull on this part. I know the quote isn't meant to be literal, but if you offer it as a part of debate then expect it to be taken seriously.

There are dozens of countries where a country bumpkin has a chance, has hope, can better themselves and be happy. Half of my graduating class came from a family of farmers or manual laborers, and a lot of us have gone on to more mentally stimulating pursuits. The United States is not alone in offering the poor, the disadvantaged or the 'underclassed' a better life. I find that this is a huge part of the undesirable half of the American mentality. America is not a hero, cannot save the world, cannot make everything better, sorry to say.

[Hobbs]

I call bull on this part. I know the quote isn't meant to be literal, but if you offer it as a part of debate then expect it to be taken seriously.

There are dozens of countries where a country bumpkin has a chance, has hope, can better themselves and be happy. Half of my graduating class came from a family of farmers or manual laborers, and a lot of us have gone on to more mentally stimulating pursuits. The United States is not alone in offering the poor, the disadvantaged or the 'underclassed' a better life. I find that this is a huge part of the undesirable half of the American mentality. America is not a hero, cannot save the world, cannot make everything better, sorry to say.

Where are you from? If I may ask.

And it was also from a much earlier times, when there were far fewer democracies in the world.

I know we can't make everything better, but it doesn't stop the rest of the world from expecting us to.

[the_std]

I'm from Canada, although you could say the same for most of Western Europe and more advanced parts of China and Japan.

It doesn't really matter if it's from a simpler time. It's not a simpler time right now, is it? What was the quote supposed to apply to, then?

[Hobbs]

I didn't say a simpler time. I meant earlier...as in first half of the 20th Century. You don't have to get all huffy about it. I would say that you should focus on the first half of the quote, then, if the second half bothers you so much.

[the_std]

I'm not getting huffy, I'm asking for explanation. You used a quote as a part of a debate. I'm asking how that quote is relevant. Why does that quote mean that America is so great? Why does that quote mean that America is better than other countries, when other countries give the same opportunities granted by your country?

Also, earlier, simpler, again I ask why that applies to the conversation we're having now. Why is America so great *now*, why have the "proud to be an American" mentality *now*?

[Hobbs]

Okay, you're really getting huffy over something so trivial. Gotta go for now. See ya.

[the_std]

I'm sorry you mistook this as getting huffy. I was under the impression that this was a debate forum, and was merely trying to debate a point with you.

I would like to hear your points in the future.

[smileyeagle1021]

I'm trying to point out that he needs to do something about .

OK, I vote, I write representatives, I join advocacy groups, I've even been in a few protests... what pray tell more can I do within the law that you are sworn to protect?

Not only do Christians try to get laws enacted that force others to behave the way they do, most Christians don't seem to understand that other people don't think the way they do.

For your last statement; the same can be said for homosexuals. Smiley expects them(Christians) to think the same way that he does, and that any deviation is akin to an egregeous error on their part. Now, it is wrong to want to visit violence on someone because of who they are, but it shouldn't be wrong to think of someone's actions as morally/ethically erroneous.

I never said that I wanted Christians to think anything... I've said I think they are wrong, I've said I want them to stop trying to force their so-called morality onto me (or worse), I've said I want them to stop their hatred and outright bigotry... but never did I say that they should be forced to change their viewpoint on homosexuality (beyond saying I thought it was wrong).
So, how does ending discriminatory practices in hiring and housing and allowing equal marriage rights (and all the related rights such as inheritance, probate, power of attorney, and even possibly adoption) in any way change a Christian's right to believe homosexuality is morally wrong? It doesn't... but hey, don't let that slow anyone down.

[MadMike]

Okay, you're really getting huffy over something so trivial. Gotta go for now. See ya.

I don't see where he's getting huffy. All I see is him engaging in a civilized debate, which is what this site is all about.

[linguist]

I have to agree, I see no huffiness. Spouting quotes without giving your own thoughts or explaining how they're relevant to the debate is an ineffective rhetorical strategy. STD is just asking you to back up what you've quoted.

[Hobbs]

I'm sorry you mistook this as getting huffy. I was under the impression that this was a debate forum, and was merely trying to debate a point with you.

I would like to hear your points in the future.

Sorry I had to leave without explaining myself, though it seems others have already taken to lashing out at me. I had to go to work and, quite literally, ran out the door after posting last.

I percieved you getting huffy because, rather than focusing on my other points, you were focusing on a small part of a quote I posted. Perhaps I didn't mention specificaly that it was antiquated and no longer valid, but I said something to that effect. I did, however, say that the first part of the quote was valid, but that seemed to be ignored for this harassment about the second part of the quote. To me it seemed more like quibbling (yeah, I didn't know it was a word either until I enlisted) than having a valid argument. Like I said, I take partial blame for not explaining my point properly, but it did seem a bit much over such a small quote.

Smiley, that's all that can be asked of you. I'm glad that you're not one of those people that complains but doesn't do anything about their situation. I, for one, support your efforts, and it is my sincere hope that these laws are repealed soon. On my part, I think that it is a promising goal, one that will be accomplished within our liftetimes. Already we're being trained that we'll need to accept homosexual members of the military, and to work alongside them the same way we would a Hispanic, Black or Whatever service-member.

[the_std]

My country owes me nothing. It gave me, as it gives every boy and girl, a chance. It gave me schooling, independence of action, opportunity for service and honor. In no other land could a boy from a country village, without inheritance or influential friends, look forward with unbounded hope.
-Herbert Hoover

That whole quote, just like the last half of it, could describe dozens of countries where kids have the exact same opportunities. If you didn't know which country it was about, I could say the same thing about Canada or France or Germany or the UK, etcetera.

So again, I ask you... Why does this quote make you a better country? If you're going to use it in a debate forum, what was the debate purpose of the entire quote?

[elsporko]

The difference between your example and mine is that there is no high level black leadership telling black people it is their duty to hate whites. Many prominent Christian leaders do. There is a very vocal majority amongst black people that racism, in any form including from within, is wrong. I've yet to hear such from Christians. Yeah, here and there you'll here a person who says that they don't agree that homosexuality is a sin, but you don't see any movement like Martin Luther Kings denouncing all violence and hatred.
I guarantee you the conflict between gays and christians would cease if the majority of Christians were to say "enough is enough, we need to stop the hatred and bigotry and let these people live their lives".
Sadly, the vast majority of Christians, either by their action or their inaction, have shown that at the very least they don't disagree with the bigotry and hatred.

I'm not familiar with gay church leaders but I do know there are gay pastors out there. Gay pastors of course that you hate because they are Christian, even though they are doing the work to make things better for you while you complain on the internet. Blind discrimination against any group is wrong.