"proud to be an American"

[Nyoibo]

I'm not familiar with gay church leaders but I do know there are gay pastors out there. Gay pastors of course that you hate because they are Christian, even though they are doing the work to make things better for you while you complain on the internet.

So good to see that you know the inner workings of Smileys and others minds.

Blind discrimination against any group is wrong

Pray tell, have you ever heard the word hypocrisy?

[Hobbs]

My country owes me nothing. It gave me, as it gives every boy and girl, a chance. It gave me schooling, independence of action, opportunity for service and honor. In no other land could a boy from a country village, without inheritance or influential friends, look forward with unbounded hope.
-Herbert Hoover

That whole quote, just like the last half of it, could describe dozens of countries where kids have the exact same opportunities. If you didn't know which country it was about, I could say the same thing about Canada or France or Germany or the UK, etcetera.

So again, I ask you... Why does this quote make you a better country? If you're going to use it in a debate forum, what was the debate purpose of the entire quote?

You're still quibbling. I never said it made us a better country. I was speaking against Smiley's seditious words against his country. Now, he's allowed to think that, that's fine. But, there are many people that. despite the conditions they find themselves in, are still loyal to their country and believe in the ability for their country to become better. The words from the first part of the quote can come from numerous sources; in fact, it reminds me a lot of Plato's Crito.

For example:

Soc. Anyone, and especially a clever rhetorician, will have a good deal to urge about the evil of setting aside the law which requires a sentence to be carried out; and we might reply, "Yes; but the State has injured us and given an unjust sentence." Suppose I say that?

Cr. Very good, Socrates.

Soc. "And was that our agreement with you?" the law would sar, "or were you to abide by the sentence of the State?" And if I were to express astonishment at their saying this, the law would probably add: "Answer, Socrates, instead of opening your eyes: you are in the habit of asking and answering questions. Tell us what complaint you have to make against us which justifies you in attempting to destroy us and the State? In the first place did we not bring you into existence? Your father married your mother by our aid and begat you. Say whether you have any objection to urge against those of us who regulate marriage?" None, I should reply. "Or against those of us who regulate the system of nurture and education of children in which you were trained? Were not the laws, who have the charge of this, right in commanding your father to train you in music and gymnastic?" Right, I should reply. "Well, then, since you were brought into the world and nurtured and educated by us, can you deny in the first place that you are our child and slave, as your fathers were before you? And if this is true you are not on equal terms with us; nor can you think that you have a right to do to us what we are doing to you. Would you have any right to strike or revile or do any other evil to a father or to your master, if you had one, when you have been struck or reviled by him, or received some other evil at his hands?- you would not say this? And because we think right to destroy you, do you think that you have any right to destroy us in return, and your country as far as in you lies? And will you, O professor of true virtue, say that you are justified in this? Has a philosopher like you failed to discover that our country is more to be valued and higher and holier far than mother or father or any ancestor, and more to be regarded in the eyes of the gods and of men of understanding? also to be soothed, and gently and reverently entreated when angry, even more than a father, and if not persuaded, obeyed? And when we are punished by her, whether with imprisonment or stripes, the punishment is to be endured in silence; and if she leads us to wounds or death in battle, thither we follow as is right; neither may anyone yield or retreat or leave his rank, but whether in battle or in a court of law, or in any other place, he must do what his city and his country order him; or he must change their view of what is just: and if he may do no violence to his father or mother, much less may he do violence to his country." What answer shall we make to this, Crito? Do the laws speak truly, or do they not?

[elsporko]

So good to see that you know the inner workings of Smileys and others minds.



Pray tell, have you ever heard the word hypocrisy?

When Smiley says he hates all Christians then I don't need to know the inner working of his mind to know he hates all Christians.

[smileyeagle1021]

I'm not familiar with gay church leaders but I do know there are gay pastors out there. Gay pastors of course that you hate because they are Christian, even though they are doing the work to make things better for you while you complain on the internet. Blind discrimination against any group is wrong.

Pray tell, when did I say I hated Christians?
I've said multiple times that I disagree with (and to some extent hate) the Church, I've said that I hate the actions of many members of the church (and by proxy many of the members), but I do not recall ever saying that I hated all Christians. Don't trust them very easily, but that is a far cry from hate.
I take that back, there are some times that I have made sweeping statements, but they have always been in regards to a very specific sect of Christians (the biblical literalists/fundamentalists), but I think it is fair to say that any fundamentalist would say the feeling is mutual.

[Hobbs]

Pray tell, when did I say I hated Christians?

You said it right here:

ANd yes, I am a bigot against Christians, I will freely admit it, but at least I have reason... God hates me so I hate God.

You're just as a bigot as the people you claim; evil begets evil.

[Rapscallion]

You're just as a bigot as the people you claim; evil begets evil.

So, you're saying christianity or christians are evil? Which one?

Rapscallion

[Nyoibo]

So, you're saying christianity or christians are evil? Which one?

Rapscallion

Yes.

just because I know people hate that response.

[protege]

Smartass

I find it interesting that someone is going on about how they hate Christians...and is generally being as "intolerant" as they are

Getting back on topic here, I might not agree with everything that goes on in the US, but I'd rather live here...than someplace like Afghanistan or Iraq

[smileyeagle1021]

I find it interesting that someone is going on about how they hate Christians...and is generally being as "intolerant" as they are

I actually was very tolerant of Christianity before moving to Utah... hell, I was once even proud to say I was Christian... but as others have said, evil begets evil.
And I'll be honest, my position may soften a bit in a few weeks, but right now, I and every other gay person in the valley is irate and rightfully so.
Two years ago a christian mob attempted to kill a gay couple... and by attempted to kill I mean they smashed out all their windows, quite literally pulled doors off of their hinges, and beat the living shit out of them because they were obviously child molesters because they were gay. The district attorney, a good Christian man, agreed with them and charged these two men, who were near death, with a crime. In court, everyone in the mob admitted UNDER OATH that they went there to try to kill them. Two years later the district attorney has finally gotten around with charging the group... did they get attempted murder? nope, they all got either misdemeanor inciting a riot or felony assault depending on how involved they were. And of course, let's be honest, it's not just an isolated incident... Church security beat the crap out of a gay couple about a year ago too. I can several times remember overhearing people on TRAX bragging about putting a fag back in his place (at least one had a WWJD bracelet... apparently, Jesus would beat the crap out of a fag).

As others have said, evil begets evil... when Christians (specifically Fundamentalists) stop beating the crap out of homosexuals, then friendship may yet prevail.

[Nyoibo]

Smiley, can I come over there and break some people?

[Hobbs]

So, you're saying christianity or christians are evil? Which one?

Rapscallion

I mean, bigotry is evil in whatever form it takes. If a Christian is a bigot, it is the same as Smiley's bigotry towards Christians.

[Fryk]

I may be wrong, but I don't even hear Smiley saying that his bigotry, so to speak, is right. He's just saying that he's been hurt too many times and is lashing out. Right or wrong of him, it is a universal human reaction, and even as a sort-of christian, I can't begrudge him for it.

[elsporko]

It may be understandable but still hypocritical, especially since all it takes to not be a bigot is to say "I hate Christians who treat gays unfairly."

[Hobbs]

I may be wrong, but I don't even hear Smiley saying that his bigotry, so to speak, is right. He's just saying that he's been hurt too many times and is lashing out. Right or wrong of him, it is a universal human reaction, and even as a sort-of christian, I can't begrudge him for it.

I can. I've been the brunt of bigots of every sort; religious, racial, etc. and can't for the life of me fathom why anyone can be that way.

[Fryk]

Then I would suggest that you are not aware that you're doing it. It's not only universal human nature, it's universal to all forms of animal life on Earth. It's called conditioned response.