Armchair Generals

[Hobbs]

If we 'civvies' don't know what we're talking about, why bring it here in the first place?

Rapscallion

"Only got time for a five-minute rant? Not enough time for a reasoned post? Here you go!"

That's why I posted it here.

I'm not saying my COC is the epitome of strategic tactics. What I'm saying is...laymen who have no education in warfare...who's trump card is "nuke 'em all! Durrrr!" need to stfu about real war. To borrow/paraphrase a quote by Gen. Patton, "...These people know less about war then they do about fornicating!"

Again, I'm talking about laymen here. Genghis Khan wasn't one, neither are the officer's of the US military. To think you know better than them cuz you saw a History Channel special, is just fucking stupid.

[Rapscallion]

Also, be prepared for people to prove you wrong.

Laymen - everyone starts out as a layman.

I'm forty. Most of my formative years and adult life have been spent with small miniatures beating the shit out of each other in Napoleonics, fantasy battles, futuristic battles. These days it's all on computer. Far easier to set up. I think in terms of ability, knowledge, and experience, I get by.

Nukes? SALT limits strikes to countries with nuclear capability, if everyone follows the rules. May want to tell them that.

History channel? I don't own a television. That's a personal choice.

Rapscallion

[Fryk]

So just because your major sat in a bunch of courses while someone talked about military strategy and the like, you assume he was paying attention and absorbed it all?

Ok, lemme switch gears here. That sounds like I'm taking potshots at this particular guy, and I'm not. I'm taking potshots at the idea that someone's skills are unquestionable because they have x rank and went to classes a, b, and c. I'm sure every enlisted man in history can tell you that rank doesn't always correspond to actual command ability. And just because someone is not in the military doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have an innate gift for strategic thinking.

That said, people are going to spout off no matter what you think of their faculties. It's just human nature. We don't know what we don't know (confusing enough? we are ignorant of information that we don't have), so we think that the information we have is sufficient, even when it's not. Nothing you can or should do to stop this.

And as a final thought, if the Joint Chiefs aren't listening to your friend, why should you?

[Hobbs]

Fryk, I respect the enlisted man, and I will agree that when I commission, most if not all of them will have more experience than me. That said, my COC was prior-enlisted. He was recommended for OTS and graduated with flying colors. And while rank may not prove someone's ability, neither does being a random person on a board.

If all you do is play wargames, then you know jackshit about war, especially modern warfare.

As an aside, I consider the Armchair General to be the geeky sidekick of the Weekend Warrior. While I like paintball and airsoft, the ones who think they're SOF when they play it annoy me to no end.

[Rapscallion]

If all you do is play wargames, then you know jackshit about war, especially modern warfare.

I know the consequences of leaving a flank exposed.

I know about patience when conducting a siege.

I know the results of a charge and how many widows it will create.

I've played the bugle - outside of games - at windy cenotaphs in the middle of nowhere on Remembrance Sunday. The Last Post - very evocative. I've seen the expressions on the faces of old soldiers. I've seen the gaps increasing every year.

Try and tell me what I know again.

Rapscallion

[Lachrymose]

You...know...NOTHING!

[Hobbs]

I know the consequences of leaving a flank exposed.

I know about patience when conducting a siege.

I know the results of a charge and how many widows it will create.

I've played the bugle - outside of games - at windy cenotaphs in the middle of nowhere on Remembrance Sunday. The Last Post - very evocative. I've seen the expressions on the faces of old soldiers. I've seen the gaps increasing every year.

Try and tell me what I know again.

Rapscallion

All right, you know tactical operations. Now tell me about the difference between operational and strategic goals. Tell me what our greatest threats, strategically, are to the US right now. Can you make an operational and strategic plan for a campaign? So far all you know how to play is Risk or Age of Empires. You don't know shit.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

I think the people Hobbs has a beef with are the ones who're not only pulling shit out of thin air, but also assuming that it's the best of all possible ways to do X Y or Z. There's a difference between bringing a fresh perspective to things and making shit up. You can't truly reform or criticize a system or situation you don't already understand.

Now I'm a big Military enthusiast (Can't and probably wouldn't join, taking orders isn't my style, but I digress) and find it intensely interesting to learn as much as possible about the way a modern military, it's operations, equipment and tactics work. I have a reasonably solid understanding of quite a few facets of modern warfare (from a great number of different sources) and as a result have an opinion on those things, how they might be done better, etc. Which is all well and good IMO. If I get the chance to talk about those things with someone who does have an experience it would be with the intention of learning more, posing questions and getting answers, discussion. "What if the US adopted the ACR?" or "What do you think about the possible uses of Corner-Shot?" that's not the problem. There's nothing wrong about learning about something outside your lifestyle and having opinions.

The problem is with people who hear something on some show along the lines of: "The G36 is a fascinating weapons and super 1337! lololol" and therefore insist that, despite what other, more-qualified people tell them, the Army should adopt the G36. That's not providing a new perspective or having a discussion, that's being an ass.

Similarly, someone who is good at Airsoft or Paintball is free to say "I kick ass at this" or, especially if they have a working knowledge of their skills and what would be required of them "I bet I could make SOF". It's dickheads who think they really are real-world ultimate badasses because they're good at AS or PB.

It's the people who spill over interest and into presumptuous jackassery that are the annoying ones.

Am I close?

[Hobbs]

Well-said Wingates. I've noticed your avatar and sig, so I hoped I had put across my point of what I meant by AS and PB.

You're quite correct; I don't mind if you bring a relatively good point to the table...it's the ones who go, "Noes! You need bio-weapons and nukes and you need to use 'em!!Eleventy!" They think of nothing besides the big picture, which is exactly what operational and strategic goals are for.

[Rapscallion]

I think the people Hobbs has a beef with are the ones who're not only pulling shit out of thin air, but also assuming that it's the best of all possible ways to do X Y or Z. There's a difference between bringing a fresh perspective to things and making shit up. You can't truly reform or criticize a system or situation you don't already understand.

Oh, I completely appreciate that. However, what interested me is that Hobbs immediately seemed to think that I did the armchair generaling just because I pointed out that as one of the inconvenient civilians of the world I did have somewhat more knowledge than the average hoorah on the street. I generally don't do the armchair generalling because of what I've learned.

Rapscallion

[Hobbs]

Pardon, but your previous posts made it presumable that you were an armchair general. Plus, civvies, even the "knowledgeable" ones, don't really know what they're talking about. No offense, Wingates, but it's not like you get the best news/updates from watching news organizations or reading papers.

[Rapscallion]

Well, we've just found out what presumption does, haven't we?

Hmm, apparently I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm not in the armed forces. Great argument. A surefire winner in debate.

Rapscallion

[Wingates_Hellsing]

It's not really an argument so much as a statement. Simply put, if you aren't an active member in any military, chances are you're simply too far removed from the situation compared to those who are to have a thorough understanding of the mechanics involved.

We live in the information age, and it goes without saying that there's plenty to be had. But that's not enough to make me an expert IT manager any more than a Colonel in the army. It's possible to know plenty without 'field experience' but to be an expert anything less just doesn't cut it. Experience is the only way to truly understand any job, a rule of thumb if ever there was one.

While the phrase '____s don't know what they're talking about' may be a smidge on the hyperbole side, it's nevertheless correct. The best statement, IMO, would be to say:

"Civilians don't know what they're talking about compared to professional Soldiers."

And even then it leaves out all those shades of gray. (Like the different branches, ranks etc. in the military or the people who're technically civilians whose job it is to understand the military, what they're position is etc.)

P.S. No offense taken, Hobbs, though you'd be surprised how good the information can be once one realizes they have to go look for it. (With the exception of the military channel on discovery, there's good stuff there as well)

[Hobbs]

Wingates, you answered it perfectly. No civilian can say they know more than the JCS, unless they're *GS-3000 or what-have-you.

*a civilian government employee. If you're in the intelligence industry, this is your rank/status...though 3000 is a fanciful figure.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Wingates, you answered it perfectly. No civilian can say they know more than the JCS, unless they're *GS-3000 or what-have-you.

*a civilian government employee. If you're in the intelligence industry, this is your rank/status...though 3000 is a fanciful figure.

There's also the tiny matter where so much of the higher-echelon information one would need to know as much as the JCS and/or the Gs-big-number falls into that whole 'classified' category.

also, thanks