People outside Utah dismissing experiences of those in Utah

[smileyeagle1021]

It happens a lot on this thread and others. The people who will always dismiss my experience as saying "well that's just Utah, get out in the rest of the country and it's different"
Well, sorry, but Utah is all I know (well Utah and Nevada which is really just Utah with gambling and booze), so what the hell do you expect? You want me to base my world view off of what is happening in California, Oregon and Washington, great, find me a job, school, and home in those places and I'll take you up on that offer. Until then, accept that my world view is based on Utah and will stay that way for as along as I live here.
In Utah it is accurate to say that Republicans hate gays.
In Utah it is accurate to say that the majority of Christians oppose true equality.
In Utah it is accurate to say that Christians are the ones you want to fear when it comes to hate crimes (I had a cross carved into my car to prove it)
In Utah it is accurate to say that there is little hope for gay people to be equal.

Does it make me any less bigoted than the Christians and Republicans in the state, maybe so... but that is my ONLY life experience, take it or leave it. I never understood what my grandma meant when she warned me that Utah creates bigots... now I do, there is no way to be surrounded by such bigotry without becoming infected yourself... my one defense, it is Christianity that infected me, not the homosexual community. So go ahead, label me a bigot, I (unlike my Christian bretheren) will admit it.... but pointing out the flaws in my logic won't change my life experience.

[KnitShoni]

The problem, Smiley, is that you lump Republicans and Christians outside Utah with those in Utah. No one is dismissing your experiences. No one is trying to belittle what you've been through. But, when you accuse ALL Republicans and/or Christians of being bigots and hate-mongers, those who aren't will have a problem with that.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

While perhaps inconvenient and time consuming, to say nothing of the notion that as much could potentially be implied, unless you say in Utah when talking about Christians or Republicans you're talking about every Republican and Christian on the planet.

We're not saying that your situation isn't shitty, or that your experiences aren't truthful. We're saying that your localized anecdotal evidence does not apply to those groups at large in the nation/world. If you're saying these things about Utah residents, be specific otherwise you're quite simply incorrect.

[smileyeagle1021]

If you're saying these things about Utah residents, be specific otherwise you're quite simply incorrect.

However, saying I'm wrong because it's a Utah thing is really saying (from my point of view) that my viewpoint is not valid because it is based on experience in Utah... asking me to accept that which I haven't seen is too much for me... all I have seen is Christian hatred, all I've seen is republican hatred... telling me that isn't always the case simply CANNOT register... I'm sorry that I am not as enlightened as those fortunate enough to have families smart enough to stay out of this desert wasteland, but my mind simply can't make the leap of a republican who doesn't oppose gay rights... the closest I've seen to a Republican not opposing gay rights has been the former Governor Huntsman who had a neutral policy... wow, that really has improved my life, a republican who merely doesn't stand in the way.
Want to know who has done good for working towards me no longer being a second class citizen?
The DEMOCRATS on the Salt Lake City Council passing anti-discrimination ordinances, the DEMOCRATS in the Park City Council doing the same, the DEMOCRATS at Utah State that forced the hands of the Republican council in Logan (the ONLY reason that they finally caved was because the liberals at Utah State forced the issue, and in Logan, Utah State is powerful enough that they could force the city council to pass an ordinance banning the wearing of the color blue on fridays if they so pleased). The DEMOCRAT Salt Lake County mayor is the one who forced through DP benefits for county employees.
The democratic councilmembers in West Valley City are likewise considering an anti-discrimination ordinance.
Are you noticing a pattern yet? With the exception of Logan (who's hands were forced) no republican council has worked towards anti-discrimination.
Want to know what the Republicans have been up to?
Well, Republican Chris Buttars has been going on national television calling homosexuals terrorists. You've read what Republican Orin Hatch has said. Republican Mike Waddops is busy working on ways that the state can overthrow all the anti-discrimination ordinances that have been passed (yes, that's right, the republicans are trying to re-legalize the "right" to fire someone for being gay). In St. George Republican council members fought the founding of gay straight alliances in the area high schools.
Using my home state as an example... the democratic members of the state legislature legalized domestic partnership laws, the republican governor attempted to veto it. The republican members of the legislation called the measure an abomination and an attack on marriage and "traditional values".
How bout hate crimes, lets discuss that for a second.
Mathew Shepard, the warning case for all homosexuals, the warning to stay in the closet else you'll end up tied to a fence to die in the cold, was committed by Christians. Case up in Ogden same time period (don't remember all the specifics), man was DUMPED OFF THE SIDE OF A CLIFF INTO A RAVINE AND LEFT TO DIE, guess what, done by Christians. Two years ago in South Salt Lake a mob of Christians attacked a gay couple, then a Christian DA refused to press charges. Just a few weeks ago a group of Christians attacked a gay couple outside a bar (they claimed that it was because they did not like the song that they were singing on the karaoke, yeah, didn't like as in it was a "gay song" ). Oh, and let us not forget the oh so infamous case where two Church security guards, on the church payroll and representing the church, beat the shit out of a gay couple.
Noticing a pattern there?
Oh yeah, it's not just gay people either, in Nevada a Christian mob attacked a muslim family in Washoe Valley a week after 9-11 (rightful vengeance they called it). In Utah my manager at the hotel was fired from one of his previous jobs for being Muslim. One of my former roommates was turned down for a job because he is Atheist (the Christian manager refused to hire non-Christians).
And is it stands now, thanks to our Republican and Christian legislature (and the vast majority of Christian voters who not only voted for the representatives but also at least one amendment to the state constitution) I will NEVER be permitted to have legal recognition of my relationship, if my boyfriend were injured I would not be allowed to see him in the hospital, if I were renting my landlord would be well within their rights to say they don't want a gay couple living in his apartment complex, and evict us (actually, thanks to the Democrats, I wouldn't have that fear since I'm in one of the very small areas of the state where that is now illegal), I could walk into work anyday and find out that my orientation is not approved of and be fired for it (my work is in a town that still allows discrimination... oh did I mention their town council is mainly republican). Amendment three, approved overwhelmingly by Christian voters not only outlaws gay marriage and civil unions, but if we were to go by strict interpretation, makes it illegal even for private companies to provide domestic partner benefits within the state.

Tell me, when all my life I have only seen bigotry and discrimination from Republicans and (at least conservative) Christians, how can I rationally NOT extend that as a trait of the larger nationwide group? You know, there is a term for people who believe things contrary to all the evidence before them... they are typically called delusional. For me to believe that despite all the evidence in my life to the contrary that Republicans really are warm cuddly people who want nothing more than me to be treated with respect and dignity as an equal citizen in this nation would be just that, delusion.

[Ree]

.... but pointing out the flaws in my logic won't change my life experience.

It won't change your life experience, but it's still flawed logic, and people will continue to point that out to you, because, well, it's flawed.

I don't think anyone is discounting the reality of your life at all.

We're just rather tired of the fact that you choose to put on blinders and, by your own admission, deliberately choose bigotry.

You approach every argument here with the same attitude, "I've been the victim of bigotry by certain groups of people in my home town, and in my state, therefore, that makes it OK to be bigoted against all people from those groups in all the world."

I grew up in a community where everyone knew their neighbour and help was just a call away. We attended the same church on Sunday. We all looked out for each other. Strangers and newcomers to the community were welcomed.
There was no bigotry and very little crime.

That was the reality of my life, and my hometown, and it's what I became familiar with as I grew up, therefore, using your logic, the rest of the world must be welcome and open, and free of bigotry.

I think people are just growing very weary of having to justify to you that, yes, they do belong to a certain faith or a certain political party, but they never, not even once, in their life, have done something to inflict hatred on someone because of their sexual preference.

We make choices in life.
Yes, shit happens, and when one is "different" and lives outside the boundaries of what is perceived as "normal", it happens more than it should, especially in a community where "gay" is considered an abomination.
The thing is, one can choose to sit and wallow in the hatred and misery, and see everyone as the enemy, or, one can rise above it and see beyond a person's label, and realize that, yes, things are shit where I live, but that doesn't mean it's that way everywhere.

It's kind of like the thread I started discussing women who bash all men based on the actions of one.

Just because it's your reality, that doesn't make your logic any less flawed.

[Boozy]

Furthermore, pointing out logical flaws in someone's argument is the entire point of Fratching. If you want nothing but unquestioning support when you go on one of your tirades, I would assume there are forums out there that would be happy to offer it.

Here, we are happy to offer support and love, because there's no question that you've had some rough experiences. But at the end of the day, it's a debate forum, and you will be asked to back up every point with cold hard facts. If you're finding it hard to back up bigoted statements with evidence -- well, that should tell you something.

Edited to add: You raise an intriguing point about how much we should value "life experiences" as valid arguments in debate. I'm more of a numbers person, but I recognize that statistics can be tweaked and interpreted as much as a personal anecdote. Anyway, it's interesting.

[Greenday]

As I've said in your other thread, I've never met a Republican/Christian so homophobic as you describe. If in your statements you could AT LEAST state Utah Republicans/Utah Christians, I might alright with letting that go. But knowing so many actually good Republicans and Christians, for you to claim they are bad people and they hate gays just makes your arguments seem absurd.

[KnitShoni]

Exactly. No one is saying you're not going through what you're going through. We're saying we're not all like the people you have to deal with.

"Tell me, when all my life I have only seen bigotry and discrimination from Republicans and (at least conservative) Christians, how can I rationally NOT extend that as a trait of the larger nationwide group? You know, there is a term for people who believe things contrary to all the evidence before them... they are typically called delusional. For me to believe that despite all the evidence in my life to the contrary that Republicans really are warm cuddly people who want nothing more than me to be treated with respect and dignity as an equal citizen in this nation would be just that, delusion."

This is the same argument a lot of people use to justify their racism. Because "all they see" is one type of behavior from *insert race here* then they must ALL be like that. If it's not an acceptable reason to be racist, why should it be an acceptable reason for you to hate me because of what I believe or where my political affiliation lies?

[BlaqueKatt]

It won't change your life experience, but it's still flawed logic, and people will continue to point that out to you, because, well, it's flawed.

actually it's more than flawed logic
falls under many catagories in the fallacy files
Appeal to ignorance
one-sidedness
Affirmative conclusion from negative premiss
Anecdotal fallacy

and that's just the "A"s

the plural of anecdote is not data-several of us have told you that Christians are not like the people you deal with, republicans are not all evil hate mongers-yet you still ignore what we say because is goes against your preconceived notions of what these groups should be. Which is known as "confirmation bias"

You discount our experiences, and quite often us, with a scoff "well in Utah that's just how it is", yet when we try to tell you the world isn't like that it's "waaahhhh you're discounting my experiences, and saying they aren't valid". Our experiences are just as valid yet you discount them constantly.

Quite simply you are being very hypocritical, if we become blinded to evidence truly refuting a favored hypothesis, we have crossed the line from reasonableness to closed-mindedness.

How would you feel if anyone said something to the effect of-"all Gay men hate women, molest children, do drugs, have orgies, and work as female impersonators."

because guess what-that is the bulk of my experience with them, because generally I don't ask if someone is gay, I don't care, it doesn't affect me in the slightest. However I had a co-worker-Rob who was always going on about his sexual escapades, and what he'd like to do to my husband(drug and rape him), while the guy on the other side of me, Ed used to hang out and watch movies, go on bike rides etc. Both were dating men, guess which one I choose to associate when I think of gay men? I choose to think of Ed-he made me laugh, didn't tell me I was useless due to my DNA, and was an all around great guy.


If all republicans really are homophobic, gay-bashing hatemongers-your head will explode at this-yup gay and lesbian Republicans working to change from within-their beginnings were in the 1978-assisted by *gasp* Ronald Regan-who helped kill the Briggs Initiative-the one that was to enact a state law in CA to prevent any gay or lesbians from being educators. And wow they have a branch in Salt Lake City-hmmm

oh and The Employment Non-Discrimination Act-is co-sponsored by Mark Kirk (R-IL), Mike Castle (R-DE), Todd Russell Platts (R-PA), Judy Biggert (R-IL), and Leonard Lance (R-NJ) -in case you're wondering ENDA is a piece of FEDERAL legislation pending-to cover LGBT from workplace and housing discrimination.

But we're all evil-yup-keep burying your head in the sand.....

Constantly complaining about how persecuted you are(my boss could fire me for being Gay-guess what he could also fire you for not liking you shoe color) and refusing to do anything about it, saying it's other people's responsibility(find me a job, place to live, and pay for my schooling and I'll move), while spewing hateful garbage at everyone....makes me start to really not like you. And that has nothing to do with your sexual orientation-45 out of 66 threads you have started are not much more than either "I hate republicans" "I hate religious people/churches" or "OMG gay rights progress/setback" most contain the above persecution complex/whining at some point.

[smileyeagle1021]

As I've said in your other thread, I've never met a Republican/Christian so homophobic as you describe. If in your statements you could AT LEAST state Utah Republicans/Utah Christians.

You're right, it is only Utah... the genocide in Uganda isn't happening, that is all a gay rights myth, gay couples in Malaway being arrested, that obviously is also just a myth, I guess Belize never made it illegal either, neither did Barbados, nor Granada, Jamaica most definitely didn't, Saint Vincint and Trididad can be added to that list, obviously all those places are just myths created by the gay rights machine.

See the problem with asking me to view a larger perspective is I can ask you to view a larger perspective right back. All of those places are places with Christian majorities (OK, so places I'm pretty sure are Christian majorities, I know Uganda, and Jamaica for sure).

I have never denied that there are good Christians (my boyfriend's family is very supportive, as are our upstairs neighbors), and a few good friends... want to know what they all have in common though? They grew up in areas where Christianity was not as large a part of life as it is in Utah. Which still supports my argument that Christianity as a whole is bigoted, though individual members may not be.

[the_std]

Smiley, no one is saying that there aren't bad things or bad people who operate under the name of Christianity and/or Republicans. What we are trying to say is that you continuously apply a label to every person who operates under those parameters of evil/hateful/bigoted, and doing that is as hateful and bigoted as those you are trying to fight because the majority of Christians or Republicans are, in fact, not committing hate crimes or attacking your values. We are saying that your hate for these people has no consistent basis outside of Utah, and yet you continuously use the actions of those in Utah to paint everyone with those same titles outside of Utah, where things are different. To continuously say that all of Christians or conservatives are evil based on the actions of a few is as evil and bigoted as all of those who say gay men are pedophiles and AIDS-spreaders. You are willingly ignoring evidence to the contrary so that you can continue to justify your hate of all Christians or all Republicans, when it is a minority of them who have wronged you or other people. In doing so, you are as bad as they are.

[KnitShoni]

Except, in the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain and several other majority Christian countries, same sex-marriage is legal. Not just civil unions, as in places such as the Czech Republic, France, Colombia, Germany, Croatia, and others. No, these evil Christian countries straight up allow gay marriage. I'm sure it took more than a few individual members of Christianity in those countries for that to happen.

[BlaqueKatt]

Except, in the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain and several other majority Christian countries, same sex-marriage is legal. Not just civil unions, as in places such as the Czech Republic, France, Colombia, Germany, Croatia, and others. No, these evil Christian countries straight up allow gay marriage. I'm sure it took more than a few individual members of Christianity in those countries for that to happen.

well heck if you want to go that route-what is the most popular religion in Mexico city-that's right Catholic, they just voted in Same gender marriage.

how about this lovely group for a counter example-you care to address that? *


"The movement from the beginning has been about equality, not about division or setting ourselves apart or special treatment"-Austin gay pride coordinator

Austin Pride is being unchallenging and “too safe.”-queerbomb leader
who also claims that being "heteronormative" and not carnal and filthy is not what being homosexual is about.

weigh in on that, a gay rights group is saying LGBT are totally different than everyone else, gee I thought they were just like everyone else, this kind of group is what people point to to justify why some people feel they are less than others. you don't see "straight pride" parades with people pulling all their sexual fetishes out of the closet-but Katt you say that's just a small vocal minority don't judge us all based on them.

then practice what you preach.


*and sadly the linked story is way to close to an onion article from 2001-seriously satire has now become reality.....

[lordlundar]

You know what smiley, I'm tired of this crap you keep spouting. At least once a week, if not more frequently, you spout how every conservative/christian/combination in the ENTIRE WORLD is evil, vicious anti-gay hate mongers, using only your limited perspective.

Now if that was the only case, I wouldn't have an issue. The problem is you use evidence that prove your case while ignoring any evidence that counters your claim or flat out calls out your own bigotry. And for the people who bring these up? You insult them and make them the enemy, or you declare them irrelevant. And the worst part, every time someone calls you out on being a bigot, you seem happy with it.

You claim that as soon as you get the chance to get out of Utah, you will and then change your opinion. I call bullshit. You are so content to hate people who have done you wrong that you will not change. I'm tired of hearing the same bullshit from you every week. So guess what, you declare people who disagree with you irrelevant, I'll do the same to you. From this point on, in my mind, you don't exist.

As for your claim to move out, you might as well not bother. You are so content to hate, that Utah is perfect for you. The more you scream your hatred, the more people you turn against you. But you seem to be fine with that. It's a shame too. I would have been among the first to cheer you getting out of that hellhole. Now, I see it as spreading your hatred.

[BlaqueKatt]

You know what smiley, I'm tired of this crap you keep spouting. At least once a week, if not more frequently, you spout how every conservative/christian/combination in the ENTIRE WORLD is evil, vicious anti-gay hate mongers, using only your limited perspective.

45 out of 66 total threads started so yeah pretty often

So guess what, you declare people who disagree with you irrelevant, I'll do the same to you. From this point on, in my mind, you don't exist.
The more you scream your hatred, the more people you turn against you. But you seem to be fine with that.

of course-plays nicely into his persecution complex or "everyone hates me because I'm gay" No people generally don't flock to a bigoted jerk-especially not one that's so proud of their bigotry.

persecution complex-
One of the top fifteen factors that can transform a reasonable, amiable, friendly person with reasonable, friendly beliefs and ideas into a ranting, screaming, judgemental zealot with poisonous, nauseating, self-righteous dreck for beliefs.
Persecution complex can strike anyone, regardless of belief, creed or religion, or whether they disagree with you or not. Once you start believing that the whole world is against you, you begin to justify your abominable actions by the presumed hostility of the world. Mind you, it's a great way to not only make enemies, but also an excellent way of making people reject your beliefs and idealogy.

it's also a warning sign of paranoid schizophrenia......

especially considering the almost constant spouting of "republicans and christians murder homosexuals for fun"

actually according to the FBI-
for hate crimes, black people were four times as likely to suffer from a hate crime.
total hate crimes against
blacks-3275
against Jewish people-1,010
against homosexual males-864

that's 9.59% of total hate crimes perpetuated against homosexual males
11.21% against Jewish people
9.67 for just being white
36% are against blacks-yet I really don't see whites, Jewish people, or blacks screaming as loud as you do about the possibility of being a victim of a hate crime-wonder why? Maybe they're better at math and statistics......

total number of hate crimes including property crimes(vandalism, burglary etc) against all groups-9,006
intimidation crimes-guess what 2,564 total incidents-intimidation crimes against homosexual males is near the bottom well below
anti black with 1,186
anti hispanic with 247
anti jewish is 201
anti homosexual male is 203
anti white is 190

and four hate crime murders out of 9 total for homosexual males-the other 5 were racially motivated

so your little statement of:

To be blunt, in the end, I don't give a fuck if Republicans ever accept homosexuals as long as they stop beating and killing homosexuals... something that may be achieved in Utah by the end of my lifetime (then again, considering that killing a gay person is socially acceptable in these parts, it may not because my life may be artificially short).

is complete and utter fabrication and bullshit.

Us population is 307,006,550 give or take-Four of that number were murdered for being a homosexual male-do you really believe with those odds 1 in over 7 million you'll be the next? Winning the lottery has better odds-not real good at math or facts are you.

864 hate crimes against homosexual males across the entire country over an entire year
that equates to roughly 2.36 hate crimes against a homosexual male per day across the country, break that down between the 50 states it's 0.047 per state per day in a state of 2,784,572-the likelihood of anything ever happening to you is approaching zero-yet you act like you require full body armor and armed guards wherever you go.