People outside Utah dismissing experiences of those in Utah

[Red Panda]

If Utah is so horrible then why don't you just move?

[BlaqueKatt]

If Utah is so horrible then why don't you just move?

he claims he'd have to totally throw away his education, because it would be too expensive to transfer to another school....plus no job, and nowhere to live....

which tuition for the university he's going to is per full-time student: $3,674. per semester of which $1,530 is covered by state taxes and other programs-before financial aid.

which considering my husband paid over $10,000 per year for college 90% in student loans-(he owes around $35k currently)is kinda more BS-my husband was a full-time student and was working 40 hours a week. He is now a network/systems administrator.

[Red Panda]

If I feared for my life because of the roaming bands of evil Christians I would take out a loan.

[smileyeagle1021]

If I feared for my life because of the roaming bands of evil Christians I would take out a loan.

And be the first person in 4 generations in my family to graduate from college in debt?
There are times where family honor takes precedent over personal preference... I've already failed my family by failing out of one university and having to start over, I don't intend to fail them further by being the first to not be able to pay for my own education (either through earning scholarships or paying for it myself with my own earned income)... the second I take out student loans I will be letting a bank pay for my college and I will end up owing my future to a bank.

As to my odds of getting attacked, my rational mind looks at the numbers and know that the odds are more likely that I will die crossing the street than being a victim of a hate crime and I should not worry about it, my emotional mind says "but getting killed crossing the street I can prevent by looking both ways and watching my footing to make sure I don't do something like fall in the middle of the road, what I can do to avoid a hate crime is stop being a homosexual... I can't do that so there is nothing I can do to avoid a hate crime."
Logical or rational, no, not in the least, but then again, neither is the fear of flying, yet I don't see people being told that they are narrow minded bigots for fearing flying.
Actually, that's a good analogy, people with phobias (such as of flying) will dismiss anything that doesn't support their phobia, will criticize those who point out the flaws in their logic, and will often go on tirades about their phobia.
So why is it then that someone who is afraid of dying in a plane crash is treated with kindness and compassion, yet those who fear being attacked by Christians are labeled as bigots and shunned?

[Boozy]

Mod note:

I think we should drop the line of discussion about why smiley should or can't leave Utah. That is a personal decision, and this debate already has the potential to become too personal.

Let's get back to the issues raised in the original post, please.

[Boozy]

So why is it then that someone who is afraid of dying in a plane crash is treated with kindness and compassion, yet those who fear being attacked by Christians are labeled as bigots and shunned?

It sounds like you've now freely admitted that your attitude towards Christians is bigoted, uninformed, and illogical. There's not much else to say here.

No, you're probably not going to get much sympathy. When your "phobia" is another group of human beings, things you say in "support" of that phobia are bound to be hurtful.

When homophobes start to rant and rave about how squicked out they are by gay people, we challenge them too.

You've obviously had some real and hurtful experiences with certain individuals who have identified as Christian, and for that you DO have my sympathy. All we're asking is that you stop extrapolating and attributing those traits to every Christian in the world.

[BlaqueKatt]

Actually, that's a good analogy, people with phobias (such as of flying) will dismiss anything that doesn't support their phobia, will criticize those who point out the flaws in their logic, and will often go on tirades about their phobia.
So why is it then that someone who is afraid of dying in a plane crash is treated with kindness and compassion, yet those who fear being attacked by Christians are labeled as bigots and shunned?

no they don't, you obviously have no idea what a phobia really is-I have a phobia of flying, yet I've been on many planes, I don't make blanket hurtful statements about planes or flying-I like most people suffering from a phobia practice avoidance-and when I do need to fly I take anti-anxiety medications.
If I don't I have actual physical symptoms, chest pain, shortness of breath, hyperventilation, fainting-in short a panic attack, it starts when I enter the terminal. And to calm myself I remind myself that flying is safer than driving, and am usually a bit more relaxed if I work out the physics equations for lift and forward thrust during takeoff.

do you go up to people and ask if they are christian or a republican? Then how can you tell? your fear does not meet the criteria to be classified as a phobia. Irrational fear=/=phobia.

Immediate Anxiety Response: The fear reaction appears almost instantaneously when the object or situation is presented.
Avoidance or Extreme Distress: The sufferer goes out of his or her way to avoid the object or situation, or endures it with extreme distress.
Life-Limiting: The phobia significantly impacts the sufferer’s school, work or personal life.

I also have a phobia of clowns, again I avoid them, I don't make blanket hurtful statements about them. I don't use John Wayne Gacey, or Pennywise from IT to justify my fear-I know it's irrational-I don't go on tirades or criticize anyone who tells me my fear is irrational-I agree with them-which is why after a few years of treatment I can be in the same area as a clown without running away screaming(yes I would run shrieking like a banshee in mortal terror)-I can't look at them yet, but it's progress-I don't start shaking or hyperventilating anymore either.

My phobia of spiders has been completely cured, as has my phobia of thunderstorms. Those two were the worst-I couldn't leave the house during thunderstorms, and had to take sleeping pills for fear of a spider crawling on me kept me from falling/staying asleep-I was known for waking up in the middle of the night to take a shower randomly(sometimes 2-3 times a night) in case a spider had walked on me.

phobia-An irrational fear, fear that is recognized as being excessive or unreasonable by the individual himself, or an objectively unfounded 'morbid' dread of an element in the environment or particular activity, of such intensity as to evoke anxiety, panic, and adverse physiologic effects, and compel its victim to avoid contact therewith at virtually any social cost.

[smileyeagle1021]

you obviously have no idea what a phobia really is.

I don't?
Wow, that is news to me and my medical record that states if I pass out from fear during blood draws I give consent for them to continue with the draw and not to rouse me until it's finished... trust me, I know what true phobia is.
That is why I used it as an analogy, of course I'm not stupid enough to think that my fear of members of Christianity taking Elohim's commandment to put me to death seriously is a true phobia, but it is most definitely fear none the less.

To counter the homophobe argument, how many gay people have attacked Christians? Google tells me of a few high profile cases right after prop 8 (which by the way was a massive Christian majority funding a campaign to remove the rights of homosexuals, oh, but they donated their millions of dollars in a kind loving way, am I right?) I guarantee you if Christians voted away muslim rights you wouldn't see a few attacks, you'd see a full blown revolt, so, moving on... other than that it looks like mostly persecution bullshit about "waah, we're being forced to accept equality"
At least my fear has basis in scriptural commandments and, oh you know, an actual pattern of past violence and ballot box initiatives to keep me a second class citizen.

Tell me, by raise of hands (or I guess replies), who here can honestly say they know what it is like walking down the street hand and hand with your same sex partner, hearing people honk and shout obscenities at you, throwing stuff at you, and wondering whether or not they will be the ones who have actually snapped enough to actually go through with their "godly commandment" to beat the shit out of you? Anyone? As it is that the vast majority on this board have probably never actually known that fear (and I pray never will), I think my original post still stands. Oh, and for the record, the obscenities and shouting are NOT rare occurrences, unless you consider normally at least once a week to be rare.

[AdminAssistant]

No, not all Christians/Republicans are homophobes and no, that attitude should not be ascribed to all Christians or Republicans.

However, I've never been to Utah, and I've met plenty of homophobic people and they've all been Christian. (This includes the, "Well, I don't personally have a problem with gay people but it's a sin against God." crowd.) It's naive to think that the problem only exists in Utah. It doesn't. It's all over. The majority of Republicans, along with conservative Democrats, oppose initiatives that would ensure equality for all people (including LGBT) because it's what their constituents want and they want to get re-elected.

As the old saying goes, it's not paranoia if someone is really trying to get you. Would you blame an African-American in Montgomery, AL in the 1960's for being a teensy bit pissed at white people? I wouldn't. No, it's not right to blame ALL Christians/Republicans/Conservatives for hate crimes committed against LGBTs. However, the people committing those hate crimes do belong to those communities and are usually spurred by that rhetoric. So, it's time that those groups, in the US*, stand up and tell their members to accept LGBT people, pass Equal Rights legislation, and stop applauding people for beating the shit out of LGBTs.

*Yes, everything is peaches and cream in Canada, the UK, and Europe, but those nations also have more liberal governments and less religious influence than we do.

[KnitShoni]

Tell me, by raise of hands (or I guess replies), who here can honestly say they know what it is like walking down the street hand and hand with your same sex partner, hearing people honk and shout obscenities at you, throwing stuff at you, and wondering whether or not they will be the ones who have actually snapped enough to actually go through with their "godly commandment" to beat the shit out of you? Anyone? As it is that the vast majority on this board have probably never actually known that fear (and I pray never will), I think my original post still stands. Oh, and for the record, the obscenities and shouting are NOT rare occurrences, unless you consider normally at least once a week to be rare.

Um...does race count? Does it count if the couple in question is an interracial couple? Yes, we still get that shit in 2010. How about my brother and his partner? Or my brother-in-law and HIS partner? They're in interracial homosexual relationships. They get that shit, too. They don't use that as an excuse to call me evil or try to convince me I hate them just because I'm Christian/Republican. They are also Christian, and my brother is Republican.

[Greenday]

Tell me, by raise of hands (or I guess replies), who here can honestly say they know what it is like walking down the street hand and hand with your same sex partner, hearing people honk and shout obscenities at you, throwing stuff at you, and wondering whether or not they will be the ones who have actually snapped enough to actually go through with their "godly commandment" to beat the shit out of you? Anyone? As it is that the vast majority on this board have probably never actually known that fear (and I pray never will), I think my original post still stands. Oh, and for the record, the obscenities and shouting are NOT rare occurrences, unless you consider normally at least once a week to be rare.

I still don't see how this applies to all Christians/Republicans. You live in a bigoted area. How does this apply at all to Christians/Republicans in areas where people don't give a damn about who dates who? I don't go around flaunting how gay guys are rude, obnoxious assholes which has been my experience in college. I'm not taking my extremely small sample size and using it to say the entire population is like that. Once again, which you fully ignored in my other post, stick to phrases such as Utah Republicans or Utah Christians and we might be more inclined to agree. But when you reference them all in ways we have never experienced, we will have no reason to back you. I mean, arguments that all Republicans are bad because a couple representives from your state are bad? There's zero logic behind that.

[KnitShoni]

However, the people committing those hate crimes do belong to those communities and are usually spurred by that rhetoric. So, it's time that those groups, in the US*, stand up and tell their members to accept LGBT people, pass Equal Rights legislation, and stop applauding people for beating the shit out of LGBTs.

We own a construction company. My husband has been told more than once not to come back to a project because the client found out I am not White. Would I be justified in telling every White person here they hate me? This is my problem with what Smiley is saying. If it wouldn't be ok for me to say all Whites are racist because of what I've been through, why the hell is it ok for him to say all Christians/Republicans are bigots and hate-mongers because of what he's been through?

Not to mention, I can point to just as many Democratic and non-Christian homophobes as I can Republican/Christian. Hell, all I have to do is go outside.

[AdminAssistant]

why the hell is it ok for him to say all Christians/Republicans are bigots and hate-mongers because of what he's been through?

It isn't.

However, people kept bringing up all these examples of how great things are for LGBTs in other parts of the world or where they are, and that Smiley's experiences were limited to Utah. I was just pointing out that they aren't.

[KnitShoni]

It isn't.

However, people kept bringing up all these examples of how great things are for LGBTs in other parts of the world or where they are, and that Smiley's experiences were limited to Utah. I was just pointing out that they aren't.

Ok, but the point of his thread was to remind us of what he experiences in Utah, and why he feels justified in extending his bigotry to those outside Utah who may carry the same label, but do not have the exact same beliefs.

I'm sorry. I know he's going through some shit. Thing is, we all go through some shit. If the rest of us are expected to be mature enough to not blame every single person in the group giving us shit for the actions of those people who are, why isn't he?

[smileyeagle1021]

Not to mention, I can point to just as many Democratic and non-Christian homophobes as I can Republican/Christian. Hell, all I have to do is go outside.

I've yet to meet a homophobic atheist... OK, I will give you that I have met homophobic Democrats.
OK, so Rick Berman is both Anti-Religion and Homophobic, but it's also universally agreed by performers who have worked with him that he is a royal douche.
Looking at cold hard numbers.
27- the number of states where citizens have amended state constitutions to ensure equality does not happen, funded primarily by Christians/Republicans.
$22Million, the amount that members of the LDS faith contributed to repealing marriage equality in California.
over $40Million, the amount that Christians in general contributed to repealing marriage equality in California.
70%, portion of Utahns who voted for Amendment 3 making ALL forms of recognition of same sex unions (even theoretically by private companies) illegal.
Prominent CHRISTIAN foundations against homosexuality
Focus on the Family
Family Research Council
The Heritage Foundation
American Family Association
Christian Coalition
Moral Majority Coalition
Christian Voice

Christian churches that teach against homosexuality
LDS- teach that homosexuality is a weakness and flaw to be cured, failure to cure can (and does result) in excommunication
Adventism- all sex outside of heterosexual marriage sin
Southern Baptist Convention- Sin, but forgivable, presumably by no longer practicing
Canadian and American reformed church- strict interpretation of Leviticus, all homosexuals are excommunicated or censured
Christian Reformed Church of North America- homosexuality is a direct result of an increasingly sinful world
Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod- no homosexual clergy permitted, membership varies by local clergy.
United Methodist Church- Homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching
New Apostolic Church- On the grounds of Biblical tenets and Christian tradition, the New Apostolic Church deems practised homosexuality to be unacceptable
Pentecostal- There is also abundant evidence that homosexual behavior, along with illicit heterosexual behavior, is immoral and comes under the judgement of God"
Catholicism- Homosexual acts are contrary to the natural law.

As compared to the list of accepting churches
United Church of Canada- all who accept Christ are accepted. Ordained ministry and equal marriage supported
Reformed Catholic Church- same as United Church of Canada
Old Catholic church- ditto
Metropolitan Community Church- specifically preaches to GLBT
Evangelical Lutheran Church- fully accepted as members and clergy, unions vary by local clergy

There are two things that stand out, the first list is not only longer but has much larger congregations than the second list.

So, following up on Admin's post, you don't want to be labeled as a bigot and clumped in with the homophobic members of Christianity, how bout rather than bitching about how it's so unfair that you are being lumped with them to actually do something like stand up and start demanding change, demand that your voice be counted as well and stop just going along with the crowd mumbling about how you disagree.