Unnecessary roughness

[Red Panda]

So what you are basically saying is you would prefer criminals don't get any help, even if this means more victims in the long run.

[Plaidman]

and if they did it in the past, but not in the instance for which they are convicted?

still not an answer. and you still haven't shown me where anyone said to treat them like gods.

Could you possibly repraise the first part? I don't quite get what you mean.

And treat them like gods, I mean what people do now.
"Oh we must find the root... it was because his pet cat died. Ok. Such horrible thing to happen to him.."

People want to understand them. What's so hard to understand that humans are generally just assholes. It's like that since you are born.

The people MADE the choice to do the crimes. No matter how hard's one life is, no matter how shitty it is, you make choices, and you can choose not to do it. But hey, it just easier to kill someone, and get treated far better then any of your victims.

So what you are basically saying is you would prefer criminals don't get any help, even if this means more victims in the long run.

Again with the coddling...
Why... Why do criminals deserve to have more rights and more help then another person? People that don't treat others like garbage, or people that don't murder. You again, are rewarding a criminal for their misdeeds. That doesn't make any sense to me. It will never make sense to me, why so many people are so hellbent on rewarding criminals who make choices to kill, rape, destroy.

[Red Panda]

You didn't answer the question. Would you rather the criminal not get any help even if it means more victims in the long run? Would you prefer vengence over protecting the innocent?

[linguist]

Could you possibly repraise the first part? I don't quite get what you mean.

sorry, you're right; looking back at it it wasn't worded very clearly.

what i meant was: what about in cases where someone has been convicted of a crime in the past, and is now accused and convicted of the same crime, even though this time they didn't do it. by your definition the most recent conviction (even though they're truly innocent this time) would make them a repeat offender.

sorry, missed this before, and feel it must be addressed:

They choose to NOT do that. They instead choose, to you know, murder and rape. Then, once in prison for the very short stay, they get as much food as they want. Some of the best healthcare in this country. Whatever degree they want to learn, again, for free....

where exactly do you get your ideas about prison life? it's hard, and dangerous. getting as much food as they want? hardly. prisoners are given just enough food to meet their daily nutritional requirements. no seconds, most of the time no snacks, unless they purchase them themselves. don't eat all your food at a meal or have it stolen? tough luck until the next meal. as for healthcare? it's barely adequate at best, when prisoners are even allowed to access it. my grandfather served time for a nonviolent offense and was almost allowed to die essentially due to a toothache (he was denied treatment for a cavity when he requested it and the bacteria spread to his heart and caused endocarditis).

[Plaidman]

You didn't answer the question. Would you rather the criminal not get any help even if it means more victims in the long run? Would you prefer vengence over protecting the innocent?

They would still have the same chances any normal person has. If they don't choose to do that path, why give them more help.
Yes, this includes taking away that stupid deal where people who go to prisons can't get jobs. If it was a one time deal, they MIGHT have learned their lesson, and deserve a chance however slim to prove they are better then they try.

sorry, you're right; looking back at it it wasn't worded very clearly.

what i meant was: what about in cases where someone has been convicted of a crime in the past, and is now accused and convicted of the same crime, even though this time they didn't do it. by your definition the most recent conviction (even though they're truly innocent this time) would make them a repeat offender.

Honestly never thought of that.
I still say it needs to be proven. I still stand that those that are 100 percent guilty, (Something I really should make clear, as while I state those who are repeat, I never made it as obvious that it needs to be without a doubt them), should be given same treatment as they obviously didn't learn the first time.

[Red Panda]

They would still have the same chances any normal person has. If they don't choose to do that path, why give them more help.
Yes, this includes taking away that stupid deal where people who go to prisons can't get jobs. If it was a one time deal, they MIGHT have learned their lesson, and deserve a chance however slim to prove they are better then they try.

So you are saying is that you want to put them back in the same situation where they went to crime before without any help even though they will likely committe the same crimes instead of putting them in a situation where they are less likely to committe the crimes because you feel they are undeserving.

In other words you would rather hurt the criminal then save the victim.

[Plaidman]

So you are saying is that you want to put them back in the same situation where they went to crime before without any help even though they will likely committe the same crimes instead of putting them in a situation where they are less likely to committe the crimes because you feel they are undeserving.

In other words you would rather hurt the criminal then save the victim.

Riiiiiight. Because there is just absoultely no help at all for people that need it.

They need shelter? Go to a shelter.
Need food? Go to a soup kitchen.
Need a life? Get a job
Need medical care? Go to free clinic if you can't afford a hospital.
Need Drug/Alchol treatement? Go to *Gasp* Treatment areas!
Need therapy? Go to a therapist. There are free ones out there.


There is already plenty of help out there, for free, if they just you know, took two seconds to look rather then go "Well, i feel like blowing that guys head off today and taking his money because I cant' do anything else".

Plenty of help already for people that don't commit crimes.

They do not deserve to have MORE help because they are just to fucking lazy to do what's already out there.

[Red Panda]

Help outside of prison is not relevant when you are in prison. I'm talking about taking a captive audiance and solving their problems before they go out and make it a problem for society.

All you are doing is trying to justify your archaic view when its challanged by the fact that it is not in the best interest of the victims. Punishment makes you feel good because it makes somebody you don't like hurt. Helping them doesn't feel as good even though it is better for society. You don't care about society, you care about feeling good.

[Plaidman]

So, how is it helping the previous victims by basically screwing them?
"Yeah, we know this man killed your entire family, but see, he just needed help. So he's now has a better degree. By the way, he's your new boss. Have fun at the christmas party!"

Once they are released, they can do it then. They had plenty of time in that summer home they call prison to think on how to do it.

By giving them more chances, your basically saying "Well, you just screwed up a little. Here's how you could have done it...."

Then of course, some will just nod and say yeah, they'll do that. Once back out, they just do it again and again because hey, it's easy.

[linguist]

Once they are released, they can do it then. They had plenty of time in that summer home they call prison to think on how to do it.

it's possible you may not have seen my earlier edit asking this, so i'll repost, with couple of additions:

where exactly do you get your ideas about prison life? it's hard, and dangerous. getting as much food as they want? hardly. prisoners are given just enough food to meet their daily nutritional requirements. no seconds, most of the time no snacks, unless they purchase them themselves. don't eat all your food at a meal or have it stolen? tough luck until the next meal. even then, prison officials purchase the cheapest food they can, which is quite often the lowest quality still considered fit for human consumption. as for healthcare? it's barely adequate at best, when prisoners are even allowed to access it. my grandfather served time for a nonviolent offense and was almost allowed to die essentially due to a toothache (he was denied treatment for a cavity when he requested it and the bacteria spread to his heart and caused endocarditis). getting an education? would you rather they learned something inside that may allow them to become productive members of society, or that they learn nothing but how to be a better criminal so they resume their old ways when they get out?

[Red Panda]

So, how is it helping the previous victims by basically screwing them?

How is not helping criminals better the life for the victim?

"Yeah, we know this man killed your entire family, but see, he just needed help. So he's now has a better degree. By the way, he's your new boss. Have fun at the christmas party!"

Its an odd world you live in. Why do you think a person who killed several would even get to leave jail?

Once they are released, they can do it then. They had plenty of time in that summer home they call prison to think on how to do it.

By giving them more chances, your basically saying "Well, you just screwed up a little. Here's how you could have done it...."

Then of course, some will just nod and say yeah, they'll do that. Once back out, they just do it again and again because hey, it's easy.

So we shouldn't try to stop crime because it might happen, even though if we do nothing it will definitly happen. I'm sorry but my earth brain is confused by your complex bizarro world logic. Where I come from prevention is more effective then no prevention. I don't refuse to buy a smoke detector because it might be defective and not work if there is a fire.

[Plaidman]

How is not helping criminals better the life for the victim?



Its an odd world you live in. Why do you think a person who killed several would even get to leave jail?

Murderers get out all the time.

So we shouldn't try to stop crime because it might happen, even though if we do nothing it will definitly happen. I'm sorry but my earth brain is confused by your complex bizarro world logic. Where I come from prevention is more effective then no prevention. I don't refuse to buy a smoke detector because it might be defective and not work if there is a fire.

And my earth brain is confused by your own logic.

There is prevention.

Here. I'll even do a step by step guide for you.

Man Murders and goes to prison for a few years. He gets few years because hey, he was high at the time and the man stole his pot. (Or any other stupid reason you want to add for why this man decided to murder).
Man gets out a few years later: Opens yellowpage. See's drug help. Go to drug help clinic. YAY! He is now clean!

Rather your view, where hey, these criminals are people too! They need even more help! Here's the best idea too, we'll even charge the victims the cost of all the help these people need! This is great!

Alright! Now they get to have whatever degree they wanted! All free! Paid by for their victims! Not to mention more and better food then others. Hey, screw the average person, our criminals need the best healthcare! Fuck the dying, this criminal who rapes and murders needs doctors now for his pinky bruise!


Sorry. There is already alot of help out there for people. Criminals don't deserve more then others just because they decide to murder and rape.

[linguist]

Rather your view, where hey, these criminals are people too! They need even more help! Here's the best idea too, we'll even charge the victims the cost of all the help these people need! This is great!

show me where she said anything about charging the victims. you can't because she didn't. you really should stop putting words in other peoples' mouths.

Alright! Now they get to have whatever degree they wanted! All free! Paid by for their victims! Not to mention more and better food then others. Hey, screw the average person, our criminals need the best healthcare! Fuck the dying, this criminal who rapes and murders needs doctors now for his pinky bruise!

*sigh* now you're just being willfully ignorant. i'll just refer you again to my previous post where i asked where you get your ideas about prison life. because it's not anything like you seem to think it is.

[Hobbs]

Exactly, Linguist. Plaid, turn on MSNBC and watch one of those prison life episodes. Then tell me what kind of utopia that is. I'm really shocked at your behavior. I say this as a friend.

[Plaidman]

show me where she said anything about charging the victims. you can't because she didn't. you really should stop putting words in other peoples' mouths.

Red Panda didn't. It's just a fact. Where do you think prison funding comes from? Taxes.

*sigh* now you're just being willfully ignorant. i'll just refer you again to my previous post where i asked where you get your ideas about prison life. because it's not anything like you seem to think it is.

What's prison life like?
Great healthcare, better then most out there.
Three meals a day, better then most countries.
Free education. Better then any strugging college student.
Free Gym. Great way to get in shape.
Movies/internet. Lots of fun there.

That isn't punishment. At. All. That is rewarding someone for commiting vile deeds.