The phrase "Hey guys, take it to Fratching" is pissing me off.

[Sage Blackthorn]

If it makes you feel any better, it pisses off the moderating team as well, when someone decides to "play moderator" like that. Years ago on CS, we had some newbie show up and berated one of the long-time members for posting a story were the employee was the sucky one and not the customer, saying "this site is for posting about sucky customers only."

Since this was before we started moderating new users, everyone saw it and several people commented on it. I stepped in and publicly asked him just who he thought he was, as he wasn't a moderator, and wasn't even a member into maybe a day ago. I then pointed out that we do allow sucky employee stories, and told him to "leave the moderating to those who have actually been appointed to do so."

He didn't last very long after that. Not because we banned him, but because he quickly made a lot of enemies, including pretty much the entire moderating team. Everyone pretty much ignored him (not replying to his posts or threads), and he eventually quit posting.

Well, that's a pretty clear cut incident. The trouble I'm having in this case is that while the individual who issued the warning is not an "official" moderator, they are a long time member with what I would term "Elder Status" on the board. Someone who's opinion is respected, and is viewed as a sort of "un-official" moderator.

So while the board's moderating team may not get annoyed when this person steps in to solve a problem. It becomes confusing to regular members (in particular newer members or those like myself who believe that it's not their place to issue such warnings, that's is the perview of the Mod's) when someone, no matter what their standing in the community or how long they've been there, starts issueing edicts like "Hey Guys, Take It To Fratching" who has not been given the authority to do so.

I've been told that the board doesn't need the formality, that it's run pretty well so far. But I feel that having clear boundries helps to avoid problems. Mod's can issue warnings, and they can back those warnings up with temporary or permanent bans. Non-Mod's issuing warnings just tends to piss people off as being presumptuous. This becomes especially true if you're new and you don't know the Elder Member who's given you a warning. They are just another regular member like you who's telling you what to do. While I don't think anyone likes to be told what to do, they like it even less when it comes from someone who's not been identified as being "in charge". If they are on the Admin/Mod listing as being in charge, then there is no confusion.

On another board that I post on, they have a system where a member's status is clearly visable. Under there Avatar is says "New Member", "Member", "Senior Member", or "Elder Member" that that gives us an indication of how long they have been a part of that online community. As a result, when an Elder Member makes the suggestion that perhaps the conversation is going south, it often carries more weight than even when a Mod or Admin just tells people to drop the subject and locks the thread. There are also fewer incidents of hurt feelings, misunderstandings, or negative feedback as it's recognized that an "Elder Member" is speaking from years of experience. While a "New Member" would be blown off as being to big for their britches and speaking out of turn, not having earned the right to speak that way in the community. For the most part it works well, and the Mod's there don't have to step in nearly as often as I've seen on other forums. The Elder Members are accorded more respect and their words tend to carry more weight than the new members. In effect, they've "paid their dues" for having been their for years, and this status is clearly visable when they post.

In this case, I know (now anyway) that Raps and his Mods trust this individual to make such calls. I hope they choose to make them a Mod' to make it clear to all that they have the "right" to make such calls on that forum. And if they refuse to become a Mod, then I think they should stop issuing such warnings in their "un-official Moderator" capacity to avoid further problems and confusion. At the very least, some indication of their status in the community would be helpful in indicating that "Yes, this is a long time forum member in good standing and a trust individual' A badge or award of recognition perhaps would go a long way in smoothing out future troubles with new members.

(Because honestly, if this has happened when I first showed up, and someone unknown to me had told me "Hey, take it elsewhere" I'd have been insulted and pissed rather than just annoyed and confused as to whether or not they have the right to say that to me when on the surface we're ostensibly equals as just "Regular Members". )

[MadMike]

Well, that's a pretty clear cut incident. The trouble I'm having in this case is that while the individual who issued the warning is not an "official" moderator, they are a long time member with what I would term "Elder Status" on the board. Someone who's opinion is respected, and is viewed as a sort of "un-official" moderator.

As far as I know, we don't award "Elder status" to any member, and let them play moderator just because they've been a member for a long time. And we have given warnings and infractions for people who try and play moderator. I don't want you to name any names publicly, so please don't do it. But if you ever see an incident where a non-moderator is trying to play one, please use the report button.

[BlaqueKatt]

You can thank Boozy specifically for that one. The moderating team as a whole do a fantastic job here and on the other forums, but on here Boozy stands out as the ultimate in dousing fires and getting stuck in on any potential trouble spots.

is that why she has the name she does*? Trying to keep us in line would drive me to drink.....



*I know it's not just wanted to make a funny....why are you all throwing tomatoes at me?

[Ree]

You can thank Boozy specifically for that one. The moderating team as a whole do a fantastic job here and on the other forums, but on here Boozy stands out as the ultimate in dousing fires and getting stuck in on any potential trouble spots.

I am in awe of the job Boozy does over here as a moderator.

We are lucky to have her on board as a mod.

[Sage Blackthorn]

As far as I know, we don't award "Elder status" to any member, and let them play moderator just because they've been a member for a long time. And we have given warnings and infractions for people who try and play moderator. I don't want you to name any names publicly, so please don't do it. But if you ever see an incident where a non-moderator is trying to play one, please use the report button.

I prefer clear-cut boundries myself. I think it helps to avoid problems. On the other forum, the majority of the member seem to prefer the more informal style of moderation where both the Admins, Mod's, and long standing and respected members of the community are expected to step in and handle problems.

Based on my own prior online experiences, this only really works with a small group of friends who know each other. When a new member, an "outsider", shows up it can be difficult for them to understand or accept why a non-staff member is chewing them out. Especially when there is no indication of how long that person has been a member.

From what you've said, Fratching has more clearly defined boundaries than the Devil's Panties forum does, so I may find it more to my liking. I still need to check out Customer's Suck, since I work in retail and have to deal with unreasonable customers (and bosses) on a daily basis. (This is what I get for working in the family business and the "boss" is my mother-in-law).

[Kaylyn]

Wait, Boozy is a she? LOL I somehow got it in my head Boozy was male...

[Rapscallion]

Boozy is highly portable.

Rapscallion

[blas87]

I find her very fair and relatable in the sense that not only does she do her job but she actively participates in threads with her own opinion and not just to keep others on track. Not that other moderators don't, it's just that I see her participate more often. And that's fine, because everyone is allowed to have a life and choose not to participate in certain threads or just feel the need to read only sometimes.

[lordlundar]

Well, that's a pretty clear cut incident. The trouble I'm having in this case is that while the individual who issued the warning is not an "official" moderator, they are a long time member with what I would term "Elder Status" on the board. Someone who's opinion is respected, and is viewed as a sort of "un-official" moderator.

That's why the report post button is there. If someone is breaking the rules (and playing mod without being one qualifies), then use the button. You'll know if the thread is dinged by a Mod because they'll do any combination of the following three things:

a) Put a post that it needs to be taken to Fratching, and it will have a big Moderator or ADMIN label below their title.
b) Send you a PM detailing the issue (I've had a couple myself.)
c) Lock the thread.

In an extremely rare occurrence, They will delete the post, and that can tend to lead to a ban.

To put it quite simply, if it isn't a moderator or Raps, then they're blowing smoke.

[Hobbs]

Wait, Boozy is a she? LOL I somehow got it in my head Boozy was male...

I made that mistake too. Same with Ree, I think...and Iradney...hmm, who else...?

lordlundar, I've seen and experienced all three

I think it's good, however, for older members to maybe "show the ropes" to younger members. Perhaps it's my whole "mentor/mentee" mentality.

[Kimmik]

I prefer clear-cut boundries myself. I think it helps to avoid problems.

As one who has moderated forums.. *none of these* I learned that things can not be black and white. Because then you get the rules lawyers who say "you said A was against the rules, but I did a"

And so on and so on

Rules have to be fluid and it is better to have guidelines rather then strict lists because then you don't have the fight of rather said actions are violations.

[Fire_on_High]

I read three forums...these 2 and one political forum well known for being "full contact".

Honestly, I find the degree of muzzling by the mod team to be frustrating a lot of the time...at the other (political) forum, the mods more or less look the other way on anything that won't end up on the evening news or with the Secret Service showing up for the servers, and allow law of the jungle style enforcement by any and all members.

Folks can decide for themselves if it's worth the hassle to announce views they know won't be taken well, but what they can't do is go whine about it after they do it.

A lot of times the enforced niceness at CS comes across as groupthink, if that makes any sense.

On CS, I get a warning for saying I think eco bags are filthy and disgusting. On FR, I can say I think CFLs are pretty good in some situations, and while I might be flamed, called names, and threadstalked by a devotee of incandescents, I'm still *free* to say I like them for the reduced heat, even if the general forum opinion is they're always bad purely because they were mandated, at the cost of their preferred type. If I go whining to the mods I'll rightly be told I should have understood it was a dangerous opinion and I should've kept a lid on it if I didn't want trouble.

That's more my preferred way of running things...but eh, it is what it is. Their board, their rules, and not much to do but follow or leave.

[Rapscallion]

The purpose of FR, from what I can work out, is political discussion, right? The purpose of CS.com is not.

However, so people can duke it out in safety, I have to pay an extra board licence to allow people the freedom. I don't see the problem. We say you can't do it over there, but over here is fine - same standards, as in no spam and no adverts, but you have a far freer reign.

I don't see the issue. I'm not saying you shouldn't discuss contentious issues, just where they should be discussed.

Rapscallion

[Fire_on_High]

The purpose of FR, from what I can work out, is political discussion, right?
Rapscallion

In theory, but at times covers as much scope as Offtopic too.

Did you know folks can find a way to argue about cute puppy/kitten pics? Yeah, it was news to me, too...

[Sage Blackthorn]

I've noticed a lot of folks mentioning CS in this this thread....which I've never been to. But I imagine that some of their frustration may stem from the same point as my own: Not being able to talk about what they want, where they want to (and by extension with whom they want to). So I had an idea, if ya' KNOW that the subject you want to talk about is a volatile one, and the people you want to talk about it with generally hang out on a board OTHER than this one. Why not start the thread here first, and then go post a link to it in CS (or in my case The Devil's Panties comic forum) and invite all our friends over here?

After doing a bit of introspection, I think I tracked my frustration over the phrase "Hey Guys, Take it to Fratching!" to being told, in effect "Take It Elsewhere" when the people I want to talk to are on the forum I'd been discussing said subject on in the first place. So far, while I've been reading through the thread here, I've seen NO familiar screen names except for Raps, which is logical since he's an Admin. Unless some of you are using alternate names and haven't told me, I'm surrounded by virtual strangers whom I've only just met.....

Sure when someone says to move the discussion over here, that's all well and good.......if people actually come over here to talk about it and don't just drop the subject entirely. And when someone says "Take It To Frathing!" and a bunch of other people say "Agreed!" then I really expect to see a new thread pop up on that subject, and familar names posting to continue that discussion IF this truely is a place where we are SUPPOSE to have such discussions and "Take It To Fratching!" actually means "Ok guys, this is the wrong place to be talking about this. We have this wonderful oher forum specifically set up for issues like this where the Adults can talk away from the innocent ears and the delicate sensabilities of those who aren't mature enough to handle it," (as I was told it was), then I have no problems. Here is a place where I can go to discuss things in an adult and mature manner.

However, IF the phrase "Hey Guys, Take It To Fratching" is being used as a cop-out, a way of saying "This subject upsets me so you can't talk about it around me!," then I find myself frustrated again. Who is anyone (aside from a Mod or an Admin or the owner of a forum) to tell me what I can and can't talk about with whom I wish?! If you don't like it, then don't read the thread. Be an Adult and CHOOSE not to click on it and open up as discussion that YOU KNOW from past experience is going to upset you. IMHO, it's childish for anyone to expect the world to revolve around them, to expect everyone to bend over backwards and not talk about things they find offensive or upsetting for any reason (Religious, Cultural, etc.) when they have the choise NOT TO PARTICPATE.

If it's merely a question of age appropriate discussion, then there are other phrases that can make that clear. "Hey guys, this is a family forum and their are young ears around here. Perhaps the Fratching! forum is a better place for this." That at least REMINDS us that 1) It's a mature subject and 2) there are kids who could be reading this. Granted, it's my beleif that 1) parents should be responsebile for what their children see online and 2) there's plenty of research to show that when Adults censore themselves around children, it gives the children an unrealistic view of the culture and it's language, leaving them wholly unprepared for adult life....but that's just my opinion.

If it's a matter of said discussion having been attempted once before, and blowing up (as what the case that brought me here after the member who made the Fratching! post took the time to explain why they did what they did), then perhaps rather than just telling us to take it elsewhere (which reads like an edict) then "Hey Guys, this subject came up 3 years ago and resulted in a lot of hurt feelings and people leaving the forum. It turned really nasty and I think everyone would like to avoid that again. It would be better to move the discussion over to the Fratching! forums," would at least give readers a good REASON....and they'd KNOW why the thread was moving. Again, going back to the event that brought me here, without that explanation of why, with the conversation remaining polite and civil, I saw no apparent reason that it should be moved. Once a valid reason was given to me, I thought "Well, that makes sense. I'm getting upset for nothing." and Here I Am.

I never just blindly obey when someone says do something. If I can't see an obvious reason to do it, then I want a good reason, an explanation of why I should. If they refuse to offer a valid reason, either in public or in private, that tells me they do not respect me as an individual. Robots obey blindly, people should not. Personal responsability demands that I have a good reason for doing anything I do, and not just "Because so and so told me to" or "I was just following orders." The phrase that comes to mind is one that was hammered into my head in childhood by my parents "If everyone else was jumping off a cliff, would you do it to?" or the variation "If someone told you to jump off a cliff, would you?" The lesson being 1) never just blindly obey and 2) always think for yourself.

Damnit, I thought I'd gotten this out of my system and put the issue to bed. Apparently I still have a view burrs under my saddle about it.