The phrase "Hey guys, take it to Fratching" is pissing me off.

[Rapscallion]

Sage? Couple of factors of which you may not be aware.

The DP forum runs along different lines, once that are far looser than CS.com. When I restarted the place for Jennie, we got maybe three posts a week on a good week. It's developed over time and become its own culture. I once took a five-day hiatus and came back to a forty-two page introduction thread that covered three separate flame wars, all of which were resolved with no hard feelings within a page or two. It's far closer to anarchy than CS.com. Many people on there are - if not exactly friends - acquaintances in real life, or have met.

We've survived over there without rules for long enough, barring one we brought in a while back saying to respect people (if I remember right). For the most part, the place is self-moderating. I like it like that. For a long time there was only me, and for half a long time there was only Sehson and myself. Sehson's more active than I am, and I'm glad he's there.

In contrast, CS.com has a community that was founded on fairly strict rules. It had a different culture, one that I wanted to preserve. The biggest differences are size and turnover. We get active people signing up most days over there. We've got nearly ten times the number of active people (those who have logged in over the last thirty days). It flows far faster than the DP forum. People arrive randomly from search engines, generally rather than because they were recommended by people already on there.

It also means that whereas on the DP forum, people are able to integrate nice and slowly, the CS.com forum (with many more areas and posts) ends up with people diving in the deep end. That takes quite a bit of rules and regulations. I really do regret the length of the rules (most of it boils down to 'don't be a dick') there, but every time I want to trim them down I can't work out what I can remove. It's burdensome.

The places are different. I like things like that. The DP forums are far looser, but even they have limits. If a member or two suggest Fratching, it's a politeness to at least think about using the services here. Most people over there have the sense to let off steam before it explodes over there.

Rapscallion

[Sage Blackthorn]

I realize that CS is a different "culture" than the DP forums. That's to be expected. But I do think, based on some of the comments, that some fundamental human needs run true in any "culture". What is the essential nature of an internet message forum? It's to communicate, to exchange ideas, to in effect "be heard". The purpose of a discussion forum is to "discuss" things. So, people sign on to forums in order to discuss: to trade ideas, to put forth their thoughts, their views, their opinions on any given subject that may come up and attract their attention. It's a wonderful thing to have a place to be heard.

So I don't think my frustration really stems from any request to take a discussion to a more appropriate forum. If the subject matter is inappropriate to the original forum it shows up on, then it only makes sense to take to to a place where people are more free to discuss it. My frustration is not with the rules (or "traditions" of a board, or lack of rules) on a forum. I guess it's really with the disparity between what I've been told something means and how people actually respond to it. Which really has nothing to do with the Administrators or the Moderators, but with the Members themselves.

For example, I've been told that saying "Hey guys, Fratching is that way" or "Hey Guys, Take it to Fratching!" is a suggestion to take a discussion here, because it's inappropriate on other forums. Ok, I can deal with that. Move it away from those whom it could offend or upset, it's common courtesy. I get it. But it doesn't seem to happen that often.

What does appear to happen is that the discussion simply gets dropped.....at least on DP. Having never been over on CS, I dunno, perhaps the members there thinking "Yes, if we can't discuss it here, and we still want to discuss it, then yes we will goto Fratching and discuss it there where it belongs." That's what I would expect to happen if people want to continue discussing things, they'd find a new place to have their discussion.

Now I will concede that it could be that I'm new here that I'm not seeing the correspondance of someone on DP saying "Hey guys, Fratching is thattaway" and members from DP coming over here and continuing the discussion. But it doesn't seem to be working that way. I'd like it work that way, that's why I decided to move the discussion over here. I'm just really disappointed that so far no one from DP and shown up to CONTINUE the discussion with me. So I figured "Well, maybe they didn't realize the discussion was still going on? Maybe they figured the last word had been said and everyone has apparently dropped it. I should put up a link to the new thread over here so they can join in HERE since people over THERE find it inappropriate."

Sensible and logical, I thought. A few folks at least seemed to be interested in talking about it....but they haven't shown up to continue the discussion. In particular DSC who posted what I took to be a very enthusiastic "Agreed!" to Kia's suggestion that we move the discussion here. I'm.....disappointed.....that people whom I thought were interested in talking about what I consider an important issue have apparently blown it off by not, as you say, "at least using the services here."

I like the services here, I find myself feeling more comfortable here than on DP and I'm probably going to spend the bulk of my online time here now. And thank you for creating this place.

But I can't help being frustrated. I think when someone says "Hey Guys, Take It To Fratching!" that the discussion should, in fact, be taken here and not just dropped, as seems to be what actually happens. I'm just....dissapointed..... It's not like anyone can force DP members to come here and discuss something if the don't choose to, I know that. But I don't see any of them here, unless they are incognito by using alternate screen names and for some unfathomable reason don't want to be seen here. They are all more than willing to toss their ideas out when it's on what is essentially their home forum. But it's almost as if they are afraid to come over here and really debate something.

Or the evidence I've seen supports my original theory that calling "Fratching" on the DP forums on a discussion is actually is a way of saying "We should stop talking about this," and when someone shouts out "Agreed!" they are not, in fact, saying "You're right, we should talk about this on the Fratching Forums," but are agreeing to drop the subject.

I'm just really friggin' disappointed is all.

[Fire_on_High]

Same username for me on CS, I don't go to DP.

Unlike what you mentioned, things really DO tend to get dragged to Fratching if it's suggested over on CS. As you said, different culture.

That said...mostly I'm irked because I tend to have a distinctly minority opinion on a lot of issues, and feel picked on and muzzled a lot of times when the opposing view is considered to be thoroughly proven fact and "no sane person could believe otherwise".

In that context, does my commentary make a bit more sense Raps?

[Sage Blackthorn]

Same username for me on CS, I don't go to DP.

Unlike what you mentioned, things really DO tend to get dragged to Fratching if it's suggested over on CS. As you said, different culture.

That said...mostly I'm irked because I tend to have a distinctly minority opinion on a lot of issues, and feel picked on and muzzled a lot of times when the opposing view is considered to be thoroughly proven fact and "no sane person could believe otherwise".

In that context, does my commentary make a bit more sense Raps?

Like I said, when the suggestion to move a discussion here is given, then I expect the discussion to actually come here and continue. It's disappointing when it doesn't and just gets dropped. I think that if someone bothers to comment on a thread, then they must've felt it was important to say their peice. If it's important to contribute to a discussion thread, then when it gets moved, shouldn't they follow? Or was it all just for show? It strikes me as a bit misleading to agree that a discussion should be moved here and then NOT follow the discussion here.

Again, this may only be my impression because I'm new here and I haven't YET seen any members from the DP forums posting here. Or I could damn-well be spot on is thinking that they avoid the Fratching Forums like the plague for some reason. I have more respect for someone who feels strongly enough about a discussion to follow it when it gets moved to another forum than for those who just drop the subject. Obviously it wasn't that important to them if they can just drop it without a second thought. And if it wasn't that important, why the hell did they bother to comment on it in the first place?

It's just, as I said, disappointing to realize that people aren't as you thought they were. But then, once again if I'm disappointed and pissed that they weren't like I thought they were, it's my own damn fault and no one elses really. Which means what I'm truely pissed at is either my own naivete' or my apparent lack of ability to judge a person's character, or my constant failing of taking people at their word. I'm just not cynical enough yet to avoid disappointment, apparently.

As for being in the minority when it comes to any given issue, I was never one to back down from a firmly held conviction solely because it seemed the entire world was opposed to my opinions on the matter. In fact such debates have often only strengthened those opinions as I've been forced to defend them. At other times, I've learned a great deal from debating with others and changed my views based on new evidence, research and facts that they've presented that I was unaware of. That's the great thing about a respectful debate, it's a win/win situation in the sense that you're always learning, always gaining knowledge (both of the world and of yourself), always improving your understanding.

Disrespectful debates are another thing entirely, and I've been sucked into far to many of them in my life for comfort. Which is why I posted the "You're Wrong Because I Say So..." thread, and left a list of articles and videos that I've learned alot from. The TA videos in particular hit me like a ton of bricks. Currently I'm watching another set of videos done by the same guy that did the "Lost Art Of Democratic Debate" video, Michael Sandel, who teaches Political Philosophy at Harvard. His lecture series "Justice" is currently online and free to view (and comment on). It's really kinda fascinating.

[Boozy]

Like I said, when the suggestion to move a discussion here is given, then I expect the discussion to actually come here and continue. It's disappointing when it doesn't and just gets dropped. I think that if someone bothers to comment on a thread, then they must've felt it was important to say their peice. If it's important to contribute to a discussion thread, then when it gets moved, shouldn't they follow? Or was it all just for show?

If a topic gets moved to Fratching, and some (if not most) people don't follow, it's because they don't care enough about the debate to bother.

It can be disappointing for someone who cares a lot about that topic, but I don't see how anyone should feel obligated to remain in an internet discussion if they no longer wish to do so.

This happens frequently at CS. A thread gets closed, and the majority of people who were participating don't come over here. It doesn't bother me. I understand.

Think of it this way: You're chatting with your co-worker about which flavour of ice cream is the most delicious. Your boss comes in and says, "Back to work, guys. You can continue this conversation tonight over the phone when you're at home."

Do you call your co-worker that night to finish the conversation?

Probably not.

You were just talking about ice cream. You don't care enough about the outcome of that debate to make the effort.

Similarly, its easy to make offhand comments in a debate on a board that you are already a member of, and already logged into. It's a bit more of a hurdle to sign up for another forum. You're not going to do that unless you really care about the debate.

[Sage Blackthorn]

Similarly, its easy to make off-hand comments in a debate on a board that you are already a member of, and already logged into. It's a bit more of a hurdle to sign up for another forum. You're not going to do that unless you really care about the debate.

Which is precisely why I'm here I care. Well, that and I'm enjoying myself far more over here. To much "fun, silly, non-political" talk gets to be like eating nothing but sugar-coated candy all day. After awhile, I just want something a bit more substantial.

[Hyena Dandy]

Hmm... I understand Sage's complaint, but I think in a way if someone says 'Take it to fratching' and then it goes to Fratching and nobody continues the conversation, that would be very disappointing to me (if I'm someone who's interested in the conversation)

That said, I think there are people who get into conversations they really don't WANT to be in. They just get caught up in it emotionally. Once its taken to a different place, they feel like "Oh, right, I don't NEED to talk about this. I was getting upset, I'd rather stop the discussion."

I tend to only make one or two posts on a board in Fratching for just that reason. Sometimes people upset me when I'm in an argument, and as much as I'd like to continue, I don't want to be upset.

If I may ask, is it admissable to post a link to a Fratching thread related to the matter on other forums?

[Sage Blackthorn]

Hmm... I understand Sage's complaint, but I think in a way if someone says 'Take it to fratching' and then it goes to Fratching and nobody continues the conversation, that would be very disappointing to me (if I'm someone who's interested in the conversation)

That said, I think there are people who get into conversations they really don't WANT to be in. They just get caught up in it emotionally. Once its taken to a different place, they feel like "Oh, right, I don't NEED to talk about this. I was getting upset, I'd rather stop the discussion."

I tend to only make one or two posts on a board in Fratching for just that reason. Sometimes people upset me when I'm in an argument, and as much as I'd like to continue, I don't want to be upset.

If I may ask, is it admissable to post a link to a Fratching thread related to the matter on other forums?

I had that thought myself, and I've posted such a link in two thread on The Devil's Panties forum. Kind of myself of inviting anyone who's reading the thread to come over here. As of yet, unless folks there are using different screen named, no one has taken advantage of the link to come over here. They've just gone back to making "silly, fun, non-political" comments about whatever issue was raised. Perhaps since, as Raps pointed out, DP has a different "culture" than the Customer's Suck(CS) forums, that it would work better to encourge the discussion to take place in it's proper forum. But my gut is telling me "I seriously doubt it. Probably not worth the time and effect to type out a quick, convenient link to the new discussion thread because people won't use it." As Boozy pointed out, for some strange, bizarre, incomprehensible reason, forum members seems to be very territorial and just don't feel comfortable moving to a different forum, even if it's set up to specifically be for talking about what they wanted to talk about. Heck, the DP forums have a link to this one at the bottom of the list. The poster that made the "Fratching Is that way guys" post included a hyperlink to here (but did not bother to start a corresponding thread here. I had to do that myself.)

I think there's just a bit of disparity between what "Hey Guys, It's time to take this over to the Fratching Forums" is INTENDED to be (directing people to a more appropriate place to hold their discussions) and what actually results when someone suggests the conversation be moved over here. Since I haven't seen anyone I know from other forums, I can only deduce that they read that suggest and read it to mean "Stop Talking about this, drop the subject". Which is frustrating, and in a way, a little sad.

There are a couple of forum members who have even said:

I'm not touching Fratching.com because if I started I wouldn't shut up until I was late for work on Monday.

and one other member agreeing with them.

I suppose I could choose to read that as a person knowing that they easily tend to loose track of time when having political discussions. Which is a very adult thing to do, but some how I don't think this is what they ment. Or I could choose to read it as just a cop-out because the due to the circumstances in which people request that contentious discussions be taken here, Fratching.com has acquired a negative stigma. It seems this place is the online equivelant of a Leper Colony for DP forum members.

If forum members were not so territorial, as it seems they are, then I don't think they would have a problem moving discussions to another forum. It's a bizarre phenomenom when you really take the time to stop and think about it.

[Rapscallion]

If I may ask, is it admissable to post a link to a Fratching thread related to the matter on other forums?

Absolutely - we positively encourage this.

The bit that irks me most is when someone says, "I know this is fratching material, but..." and then goes on and posts it anyway. Never understood that. It's like putting your genitals in a hot dog bun and holding them out to a hungry pit bull and wondering why you end up in ER.

Rapscallion

[Sage Blackthorn]

Absolutely - we positively encourage this.

The bit that irks me most is when someone says, "I know this is fratching material, but..." and then goes on and posts it anyway. Never understood that. It's like putting your genitals in a hot dog bun and holding them out to a hungry pit bull and wondering why you end up in ER.

I'm reminded of a particular scene from "The Cowboy Way" where Keifer Sutherland ends up saying "Damn, that looks like it hurt."

I've been meaning to ask where "NSFW" topics stand and how they stack up against the aforementioned "I know this is fratching material, but...." posts?

[Rapscallion]

We don't have hard and fast rules about NSFW at the moment. NSFW tends to be sexual or biological things - a female poster asking for advice about 'girly' issues is no problem. Someone posting about how extreme their love life is is going over the top.

Different kettle of fish, actually. Most NSFW aren't going to end in flame wars.

Rapscallion

[Hyena Dandy]

They've just gone back to making "silly, fun, non-political" comments about whatever issue was raised.

But what I was thinking was that maybe a lot of people WANT to go to the silly, fun, non-political statements. What I was suggesting was that perhaps people just don't want to be involved in the debate, but they got caught up in it. When the chance to continue or not comes up, they decide they don't want to continue, because they're there for silly, fun, non-political somments.

[Sage Blackthorn]

We don't have hard and fast rules about NSFW at the moment. NSFW tends to be sexual or biological things - a female poster asking for advice about 'girly' issues is no problem. Someone posting about how extreme their love life is is going over the top.

Different kettle of fish, actually. Most NSFW aren't going to end in flame wars.

Rapscallion

I was just wondering, especially in light of DSC's thread about Canada legalizing (or at least de-criminalizing) Prostitution. I look at that and I think "It's about the law, it's about people's rights, it's about how outlawing something hasn't worked....this sure sounds like politics to me. But wait, we're not suppose to talk about politics here. On the the other hand, they aren't really talking about the politics of it, they just seem to be making fun of it." It's bloody well confusing.

[Rapscallion]

We do try to tend towards leniency where required on potential fratching stuff. As a general guide, if someone is saying how it is then it's usually fine. If someone's saying how it should be, then that's debating and over here.

If you're ever in doubt, feel free to hit the report button or PM a moderator. We don't bite. Nibble maybe, but not bite

Rapscallion

[Sage Blackthorn]

If you're ever in doubt, feel free to hit the report button or PM a moderator. We don't bite. Nibble maybe, but not bite

This statement puts me in a conundrum as to how to respond to that I'll just re-state that Kia should be made a Mod' over on the DP forums if there is to be nibbling involved......Or Tip' should have the designated responsebility of nibbling questioners.