Trying to argue how things SHOULD be...

[blas87]

It's hard to not take personally when you cannot have a debate with someone without them putting words in your mouth (fingers) or making an assumption about something you said. It gets old and sickening. If that's your method of debating, then I guess do what you do, but don't be surprised if you irritate people. It makes a little more sense to fully read what someone has written and try not to take it out of context or assume they have written something that they have not.

Perhaps you're right. I cannot debate with people who don't even read what I've written and take everything I've written as a blanket statement or a "One person does so EVERYONE does!" situation, which has happened more than once with you and a few other members. That is nitpicking and turning a thread into a whole new direction, not to mention accusing. Not debating.

Debating would be disagreeing with me and explaining why, without claiming that I wrote something that I didn't or that I made a blanket statement that I didn't. See, this is the beauty of this site, versus a spoken debate. You can go back and read what I wrote. If you can find where I actually said "Everyone who smokes pot is a loser", good, you proved me wrong and an idiot. But you can't. So I'm more likely to take it personally, and less likely to keep the topic on topic, because it's been resorted to poor debating tactics.

My own views are influenced a lot by friends and coworkers, the people I deal with the most in life. That is my basis for debate, as yours seems to be taking things out of context and making your own assumptions. If you don't like my debate tactic of using what I experience day to day, then just flat out say it, and call it a poor tactic. It may not be your way or your opinion of logic because you think outside of a larger box than I, or you have a larger heart and forgive and forget a lot easier than I do. That's what makes us different. But this debate goes nowhere when someone is called out on something they never said.

[blas87]

Is reading really that hard? I never said they were all losers. The ones I know or have been friends with or dated have shown a lot of "loser" traits, but I never said they were all losers.

I should not have to post a disclaimer, but I suppose I might as well, since this site has gotten to the point that you can hardly have a debate anymore without someone taking something out of context, accusing you of writing something you didn't, or on the rare occasion pulling a strawman, and the dreaded nitpicking the bits and pieces of a thread and not the main subject itself to death that it's railroaded.

[Greenday]

I've been keeping my mouth shut mainly because I had other stuff to get done, but damn, it was fairly damn obvious the blas was talking only about the people she knew and not every person who smokes weed.

[Bronzebow]

And to you, Bronze....Where in the fucking thread did I ever say that they should be made felons and jailed? Where? How about you cool off your panties before you hop down my throat.

But since you sank to that level, here I go: Until you experience what it is like to be friends with and date people who have no goals or ambitions in life other than to drink themselves into a coma or smoke themselves until they can hardly say a coherent sentence, don't get hissy with me, either. I've experienced my own problems with alcohol and I overcame it. All of my anti-drunk diatrabes are not biased goody two shoes Mary Jane dribble. I was once there. It breaks my fucking heart to see people that I once cared about (or still do) abusing alcohol or prescription pills. But I have lost the patience and tolerance of dealing with people like that when they have proven to have no incentive to better themselves and stop it.

And to be blunt with you: It is my fucking business if someone is smoking pot and working nearby me or driving on the same road as me, as it would be if they were drinking or taking medication they weren't prescribed to or abusing it. If you are jeopardizing safety, it is my fucking business.

You "rolled your eyes" at people trying to legalize it, claiming that you thought it was just people trying to toke up legally. The jailing, torturing and stripping of rights is what is happening right now. By "rolling your eyes" at legalization, you are supporting the status quo, whether you realized it or not. I honestly don't understand how people can be up in arms about making jokes about rape but be so passe about something like this. I was trying to make you realize that by pointing out the absurdity of the thought when applied to jelly beans and beer.

My other point is that those people you talk about do need help. They should get it. Locking them up in prison is not that help. I don't understand how people think it is, either, just like you wouldn't lock up people addicted to video games or cake.

[blas87]

And where in the hell did I say jail them? For Pete's sake. I remember talking about my pot smoking buddies (or ex buddies) and talking about loser traits and some other rants and raves about debate tactics but I never posted anythng about arresting and jailing them all and making them suffer for their heinous crimes to society. If you want to argue that I inferred it or insinuated it, don't even try that one. I've already had enough words put in my mouth today.

Stripping of rights? Where is it your right to smoke pot? If you want to open a new can of worms, I'm sick of hearing about people talk about rights being violated when they aren't even your rights at all.

[AdminAssistant]

I hear you, blas. I'm not saying that pot shouldn't be legalized, I'm saying that legalizing it isn't going to solve every single problem in the effing world, okay?

Also, I tend to point out the legalization of pot when I hear about (or see) people dealing and smoking the stuff around their children. That, for me, is a big problem. If you want to sit in a room and smoke your brain cells out, okay. But don't involve your kids.

And, for the record, yes, I've done it. It made me do some extremely stupid shit and I'm very very lucky.

[the_std]

Blas, I was responding to a few points in your original post.

You can try to argue the benefits of legalizing marijuana (oh, for medicinal purposes of course, just like our Governor has tried to) and I'll still roll my eyes and think it's just potheads trying to get away with having their tokes and dopes in a more legit way.

You admit here that we can try to argue the benefits of legalizing marijuana and you will roll your eyes and just think it's potheads trying to get high legally. Your words. This is a generalization. This is "you can say whatever you want and I'll just think what I think anyways". So, right from the outset, it doesn't matter what we say, because we're just trying to get high and not get arrested.

I have had to break off frienships because of friends who wouldn't give up smoking pot for one day to do something other than sit on the couch and toke away, or go ONE outing without trying to push others to smoke with them, because they can't handle doing anything without their pot, and listen to excuse after excuse as to why pot is not a drug, it is all natural, God made it just for us, blah blah blah blah, it helps you sleep it cures pain.

Again, I ask you - what does the poor impulse control, lazy social tendencies and addiction issues of your friends, the people you are referring to specifically, have to do with the legalization of pot? I understand that you are basing your opinion mainly on your life experiences, as most of us do. But you must realize that just because some of your friends who cannot deal without the pot does not immediately mean that everyone who does pot is this way. And even if they were, even if every single potsmoker on the planet was like these people... Being annoying and a bit of a dick is not enough reason to send people to jail for the exorbitant sentences many drug users get. Why are the reasons you listed in this specific bit enough to make you go to jail?

All it ever did for me was make me hungry, make me lazy, make my eyes go all Taylor Swift squinty, and made me overeat and then sleep for hours on end, and then I'd get a headache when the buzz wore off. I don't see how smoking pot saves anyone's life or cures their awful pain or makes it easier to live life.

All this means is that it didn't cure your pain, if you had any. It didn't save your life, if pot can do that at all. But just because you are without the disease that causes pot to be useful and helpful doesn't mean those benefits do not exist. Research has been done, studies and science and empirical evidence. You cannot simply get high yourself and say that, because it didn't do anything for you, pot should remain illegal.

[the_std]

I hear you, blas. I'm not saying that pot shouldn't be legalized, I'm saying that legalizing it isn't going to solve every single problem in the effing world, okay?

None of us in this thread have made the claim that it will solve every single problem. This is like the prostitution thread - just because legalizing it will not solve every problem involved with its use does not mean that legalizing it will be a bad thing. Minimalizing negative effects (drug cartels, gang wars, non-violent criminals getting huge sentences, etcetera) is more than enough reason. No law will completely eliminate every bad thing about... Anything. Why should prostitution and drug use be turned down just because it is like everything else?

[Bronzebow]

And where in the hell did I say jail them? For Pete's sake. I remember talking about my pot smoking buddies (or ex buddies) and talking about loser traits and some other rants and raves about debate tactics but I never posted anythng about arresting and jailing them all and making them suffer for their heinous crimes to society. If you want to argue that I inferred it or insinuated it, don't even try that one. I've already had enough words put in my mouth today.

Uhh...

I was talking about issues with the law and the insane punishments in place for the noncrime. Your first reply to me says:

You can try to argue the benefits of legalizing marijuana (oh, for medicinal purposes of course, just like our Governor has tried to) and I'll still roll my eyes and think it's just potheads trying to get away with having their tokes and dopes in a more legit way.

Being against legalization is being for the punishments.

If you are actually for legalization, even if you are against the act on a personal level, then I'm not certain how else you would have someone take that quote. Once you started dismissing the substance as a valid medication for several ailments later in that same post, it was hard to look at that statement as anything but pro-drug warrior. If you support legalization, then I misunderstood and apologize. Just be sure to be more specific on what you're trying to say, instead of jumping down on anyone who makes arguments against the status quo.

And, once again, I was making you aware of exactly what supporting criminalization of drugs means. More often than not, people who support this simply don't understand what it is that they are supporting. I was making sure to correct that.

Stripping of rights? Where is it your right to smoke pot? If you want to open a new can of worms, I'm sick of hearing about people talk about rights being violated when they aren't even your rights at all.

Your right to freedom, the concept of self-ownership, and one's eight amendment are violated by the war on drugs. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

[Boozy]

So it appears that things got a touch heated here, huh?

How about everyone involved take a deep breath and a nice long break before returning to this one? I don't want to see any more cursing or borderline character attacks.

[Plaidman]

Your right to freedom, the concept of self-ownership, and one's eight amendment are violated by the war on drugs. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

Sweet! I have the freedom to kill others for looking at me wierd! I mean, that's a violation of my rights to restrict that freedom.

It's been my experence that the bulk of pot smokers, are just that. Pot smokers. They talk about pot. They read about pot. They show pictures of pot. They spend the day trying to get pot to smoke. They smoke pot in front of their kids. They buy pot for their kids to share, because it's the greatest thing in the world.

Sure, it may heal some people, but the bulk of people just want to abuse it just like people that drink beer all day long.

You really think legalizing pot is going to make the world better? People will still murder for it. People will still rob for it. People will still drive while higher then a kite. People will still ruin their and others lives.

Putting drug abusers in jail pervents the ruination of others lives. People have murdered others for stuff like pot, crank, cocaine. That is not just ruining their own lives. Their actions may have been the reason they are in prison, but the drug was the cause. Don't do drugs, your less likely to murder others to get your fix. Your less likely to spread contaimaed needles with HIV and Aids.

Sure, not all drug users do it, but the bulk of them do. Jsut because one day a drug user can do a little meth that day and not do anything, doesn't mean a week or a month later they will still not go on a crime spree to get their fix at the cost of whoever gets in their way.

[Bronzebow]

Sweet! I have the freedom to kill others for looking at me wierd! I mean, that's a violation of my rights to restrict that freedom.

Not quite. That goes against the concept of self ownership, and the basic concept of freedoms are that yours end where others' begin. Self-ownership tells us that we own our bodies, our works, our abilities to work towards the future, and our lives. To take any of these away from you means that you do not actually own yourself or your life, and thus are not free. Killing someone violates their right to freedom and their self ownership, which means that you do not have that right. This example is not a good one.

A more accurate example would be for you to suffer dire consequences because I, personally, do not like black jelly beans. I would be forcing myself and my nonsensical or personal beliefs upon your ability to own yourself and your body against your will.

You really think legalizing pot is going to make the world better? People will still murder for it. People will still rob for it. People will still drive while higher then a kite. People will still ruin their and others lives.

Putting drug abusers in jail pervents the ruination of others lives. People have murdered others for stuff like pot, crank, cocaine. That is not just ruining their own lives. Their actions may have been the reason they are in prison, but the drug was the cause. Don't do drugs, your less likely to murder others to get your fix. Your less likely to spread contaimaed needles with HIV and Aids.

First off, yes. I think that a lot would be improved by as little as decriminalizing a harmless weed of a plant. For a list of all of these reasons, please see my first post in this thread. I can go into more detail on any of those points if you so wish. The basic premise is that I would rather the actual addicts get actual help, and that anyone not addicted are no business of mine or yours. I'd be interested to hear anyone who thinks otherwise.

Second of all, you bring up an extreme example and suggest it represents the norm. I'm going to need some numbers, research, statistics, anything to believe that, because it goes against everything I've witnessed.

People already drive while under several impairments, from alcohol to kids to singing with the radio to having a bad day at work. If we take your logic, we might as well make kids illegal and jail anyone who can sing. To suggest that most to all of your citizenry are not capable of the mental power to drive with kids in the back, or the smarts to know not to drive while influenced by something else, is a hard pill to swallow.


Thirdly, people murder and steal and cheat for drugs for several reasons:

1. They are illegal, so they have been pushed to the black market.
2. Because they are on the black market, some bad elements get introduced.
3. These bad elements are assumed to be associated with the object themselves instead of the very nature of restricting supply and taking out all oversight. I.e., the black market.
   
   To reiterate the above points: Drugs are bad because they are illegal. Drugs are illegal because they are bad.
   
4. Putting drug abusers in jail causes the ruination of the lives of the abuser and his or her family and friends. It does not prevent it; it is a cause of it.
5. Those that are addicted cannot seek help for fear of being hung out to dry by a jury of their peers. Since they are addicted without hope, they act like it. Why slap them in handcuffs instead of help them?

You know what they say about people who don't study history?

[Plaidman]

But you are forcing your views on others, much like the anti-drug do it too. Your screaming to let everybody smoke pot and you better legalize it etc.

Would one put a legal age on it? Every pot smoker I've met truely and firmly belive that it's 100 percent safe and never harms anyone, so can two year olds smoke it? Will all teachers start passing around joints during nap time in preschool? Though a decent chunk of pot smokers do go on to other drugs, as they now belive that since people always told them pot was bad and addictive, and they haven't gotten harm or /addicted/ (Point is. pot smokers are addicted. They flat out do it pretty much monthly, if not weekly or daily. Pot smokers claim they can quit anytime, but they don't. They just keep toking away because it's safe and nonaddictive), they then do go onto harder and harder drugs, because hey, pot was safe, so all drugs must be safe.

It's also always hilarious that the bulk of any pot study, is always done by pot heads or pot smokers. So naturally they are incline to shout out the awesomeness of it.

Some people can't handle pot. Period. Thus the laws on it, to protect those otherwise who go to extremes. It isn't legal to drive drunk, though some can do it. Make something legal, and everyone does it, those who can't handle it and those who can. Who's fault is it when someone gets hurt by those that can't handle it? Since it's perfectly legal to smoke weed, it's perfectly legal that they went off and ran someone over on the way to eat munchies. It wasn't because the pot impeded their ability to drive and reflexes, its because someone totally jump after farting a magical fart of farty farts towards the pot head, while he was going whoaaaaaaaa"

[telecom_goddess]

I gotta agree with Blas and Plaid on this one.....no not EVERYONE who smokes pot is truly addicted. I'll cut a break for the ones that have needed medical marijuana cards. It does help them.

But people who are not medical marijuana users? That live for toking up? They are good about not smoking all day at work but then make a beeline for it the second they get home? And spend every waking moment at home high? Sorry they are losers. And this whining about making it legal is just an excuse to make their habit legit and easier to maintain.

I included my bf in this...he spends every single moment at home high...can't live without it. All he cares about is getting high....and as a result he doesn't do anything that needs to be done in his life. He blows off everything. And he stinks up my house in the process. I'm sick of it. I don't need that crap or alcohol to get by in life.

[Plaidman]

Not to mention it opens the flood doors to other drugs.

Since group A can easily withstand the bad effects of drug A, say, pot, then since group B can easily withstand the bad effects of drug B, like cocaine, then it should be legal. Group C shouts they can withstand the effects of crank, so hey, it should be legal damn it. Then Group D shouts PCP is their choice of drug, and all they do is use it at home! It's the other users that make them look bad damn it!


Why are drugs illegal? Because people do abuse them, and make the so called /innocent/ users look bad.

Can drug users be good people? Absoultely. Totally. If anything my own mom and stepdad are proof of that. First decade of my life, they were heavly addicted to meth. Mom's been clean now for a long time. Did i have a home? Yes. toys? Yes. Food? Yes. Warmth? Yes. Love? Debateable....

There are people that can handle drugs, and those that don't. You make one legal, you make others want their drug of choice legal. Since it's legal and likely cheaper, they'll buy more of it, and much more likely overdose and die.

So what's the better way instead of labeling people as more special then others? Make it all illegal.

Because that's what you do if you make a drug legal for some and not for others (The ones that cant handle it). You are declaring that person A is more special and can do drug A, while person B cannot. No-one likes being told No. People hate being told no while they see others being told yes.

So everyone gets told no. No favoritism. No opening lawsuits. (People will sue others on drug useage if it was legal).

Legalising Pot will NOT make world peace, despite what the bulk of pot smokers think. Pot may be fine to some, but to others, its heavly against their beliefs. Be it religion, health, or just plain own ethics. People hate others for enough. Why add drugs more to the mix.