Execution delays

[Ginger Tea]

here's a question i'd like to pose: if the difference between "execution" and "murder" is the innocence of the victim, should we be prosecuting those responsible for the state-sanctioned death row murders of innocent victims?

I thought of this analogy on the way to work this morning
Soldiers fighting a war never face charges of murder, even if an innocent bystander is caught in a cross fire, they just get listed as collateral damage.

however if a soldier decides to go postal on a random village, then that person would face the consequences.

So an executioner would/should not face any consequences of any innocent man or woman as they are following out procedure and again as stated in another post (possiby also by linguist) the fault lies further down the line, cops who want anyone to go down as the DA wants someones head for the crime and thats as the public want someone's head on a plate

[Andara Bledin]

And I'm sick and tired of people who get the death penalty hanging around on death row for a decade or more ....what the hell is the hold up?

Appeals.

Our court system is choked to a practical standstill with all of the cases wending their way through, so it can take literally years before prosecution of some cases even begins.

People don't appeal life without chance of parole with quite the same zeal.

Also, the death penalty doesn't serve any kind of justice. It serves the very human need for vengeance.

This.

I don't think they should go to college. I think they should be forced to sit in a plain cell with just enough food to keep them alive.

So, you want to torture them?

... I thought torture was bad?

so we as a society should become merciless monsters just like them?

But we're merciless monsters in the name of justice.

Didn't you know? That makes it OK.

If you don't value the lives of others around you, why should anyone value yours?

Two wrongs do not make a right.

That's not really the best of comebacks, because it's not an every day occurance.

It doesn't matter.

A single innocent put to death for the crimes of another is a tragedy and not worth even all of those put to death in the name of justice.

...you still have innocents being railroaded regardless of the state of technology.

Just look at the cases surrounding the murders of JonBenet Ramsey and Stephanie Crowe.

I don't strenuously object to the death penalty in and of itself, although I really do think that it does not advance our society in any meaningful way. However, until we come to a point where we can be assured that overzealous cops, unscrupulous prosecutors, and incompetent public defenders are eliminated, it's just not a morally acceptable option.

^-.-^

[Kimmik]

Except sometimes they haven't been. People on death row are proven innocent all the time. And frankly, even if someone has done horrible things, isn't the death penalty just an easy way out? Why not leave them in prison to rot?

Also, the death penalty doesn't serve any kind of justice. It serves the very human need for vengeance.

Amen... I don't want the fucker who shot my brother to get the death penalty.. I want him in a cell 20 hours a day for the rest of his fucking life. What we NEED is a prison over haul... no fucking cable, no mini store, no weight benches and gym equipment.. and for cripes sake chain gangs did have a purpose.. no it is not cruel it is putting people who hurt society to give back to that society. I am for them having access to education and training. A lot of the problems is the break down in society were there is no help for at risk children.

If our justice system never got the wrong person, or made an error then I would understand the death penalty. I would still be against it but at least there wasn't the chance to kill the wrong person.

Is it really ok that some innocent people get put to death because of misidentification, wrong place wrong time, railroading etc? Even if it is one in ten thousand that is one to many.

[christopher]

I still dont understand why my taxes should go to giving those scum things I cant afford for myself. Putting them in prison for life doesnt really help much considering that they will probably be released early and continue their criminal activities. The death penalty ensures that they never hurt another person or people ever again. It is not right that criminals can get away with horrible crimes knowing full well that they will never have to pay for them. We need to be better than them? Why? They certainly didnt care when they raped and killed and tortured. But when justice comes for them, we have to be the better person? Let them get away with murder because there might be a very slim chance they didnt do it? Where is the justice for the victims family? To have to see that murderer laughing at them in prison knowing in 5 - 10 years they will be free and their kid, wife, husband, family member will still be dead. That is shameful. We should not give them more than the bare minimum needed to keep them alive. The hell with letting them have tvs, radios, cable, libraries, gyms and free time. Prison is not a collage and they should not be given any comfort. It is a place for punishment and that is all. They can rehab on their own money, not mine.

[BlaqueKatt]

I still dont understand why my taxes should go to giving those scum things I cant afford for myself.

yup like that free High School Education that Jimmy the drug dealer didn't get because he was forced to join a gang or be killed, and once in said gang shot a security guard.

Or Jane the shoplifter who was kicked out of High school for getting pregnant, and stole a pack of diapers and some formula for her baby. No education so no job for her to legitimately get what she needed.

Nope you couldn't afford that FREE high school education-so They shouldn't get it either, they MUST BE PUNISHED!!!!eleventy1111!!!!

and their "free college education" isn't "paid for with your tax money"-the schools are donating time and materials kind of a scholarship

Here's two articles on it
first
Second

It is a place for punishment and that is all. They can rehab on their own money, not mine.

Then hey you can continue to pay for them because rehabilitation programs REDUCE recidivism*, or you can just focus on PUNISHMENT and have them learn nothing and continue to commit crimes......

And FYI- the prison system itself appears to disagree with you-as do the laws, and the entire criminal justice system-how about that?

the United States Code states that sentencing judges shall make imprisonment decisions "recognizing that imprisonment is not an appropriate means of promoting correction and rehabilitation". Although the importance of inflicting punishment on those persons who breach the law, so as to maintain social order, is retained, the importance of rehabilitation is also given priority.

*Effective rehabilitation programs reduce the likelihood of re-offense and recidivism. Programs delivered in the community were followed by a 35% reduction in reoffending, programs delivered in residential settings (such as prisons and halfway houses) were followed by a 17% reduction in reoffending.

[Plaidman]

yup like that free High School Education that Jimmy the drug dealer didn't get because he was forced to join a gang or be killed, and once in said gang shot a security guard.

Jimmy made the choice to kill, made the choice to join a gang. How is one /forced/ to join a gang? What, your walking down the street and a bunch of people shove shotguns down your throat and tell you you need to join them or die? Hardily calls for any loyality, plus what if said person is not anything like them? Even gangs want people like them. If anyone is that scared, eventally people have to sleep, eventally there will be a lull in the harsh security they must place on new gang members with shackles on them and 24 cameras to make sure they stay a gang memeber, and that's when you go police, and tell them where gang headquarters are. Everyone makes the choice to join a gang. No-one is forced.

Or Jane the shoplifter who was kicked out of High school for getting pregnant, and stole a pack of diapers and some formula for her baby. No education so no job for her to legitimately get what she needed.

Made the choice to fuck. Be it with a condem or not, she made the choice. It's pounded in everyones head pretty much since third grade, if not before, that no sex protections is 100 percent effective. She made the choice to fuck, and she made the choice to steal, rather then go on welfare like most welfare baby makers, rather then return to school after baby is born, rather then get a GED, rather then seek the billions of options for help. She made the choice. [/quote]

Nope you couldn't afford that FREE high school education-so They shouldn't get it either, they MUST BE PUNISHED!!!!eleventy1111!!!!

Yes they should. Every single criminal act in this world is completely by choice. They made it rather then seek alternitve ways. I want a girlfriend, I don't kidnap girls and brainwash them. I want money, I don't rob stores. Criminals want something, and they feel they are entitled to it, so they do it. They don't deserve to be rewarded by it.

[christopher]

Damn straight. I am fairly poor right now and I would seriously maim someone for some tobacco since I cant afford it at the moment. However I do not attempt to rob a smokeshop or assault someone who has some because I have the common sense to know that would be very stupid. Criminals should be punished. Far too many people get off with just a slap on the wrist. The justice system does need a serious overhaul. There are plenty of programs for the needy to get the help they need. Prison might be a place for rehab, but too many use prison to learn how to be a stronger, more dangerous criminal. I fail to see how that helps anyone let alone these repeat offenders.

[BlaqueKatt]

Prison might be a place for rehab, but too many use prison to learn how to be a stronger, more dangerous criminal. I fail to see how that helps anyone let alone these repeat offenders.

When all three principles of rehabilitation are effectively applied, the impact on offending is a 26–32% reduction, compared to a 3–7% increase in offending found with imprisonment alone.


oh look your idea of "Punsihment only" INCREASES crime-how about that? Maybe that's why they changed it in 1968 after ya know doing a ton of research on the subject and not going with gut reaction/revenge. But I'm sure having done no research on the subject and never having worked with any kind of anti-gang task force you know better than people that have spent their entire lives looking at this stuff right?

wow I see by asking this question you didn't read any of what I linked to-go back and read it please.

Longer periods of time in prison make outcomes worse, not better; offending increases by around 3% as prison sentences increase in length.


In prison or residences inmates spend a great deal of time with other people immersed in criminal pursuits and beliefs, whereas in community-based programs there is more opportunity to mix with people involved in constructive, law-abiding activities. Antisocial peers in prisons and residences can form a very powerful pressure group, subtly and not so subtly influencing the behavior of other inmates.

Jimmy made the choice to kill, made the choice to join a gang. How is one /forced/ to join a gang?<snip> No-one is forced.

I'm not even going to attempt to address how totally ignorant that is...(hint we just had a kid age 17 shot on his lunch break from work for refusing to join a gang-join or die sounds a bit like force to me), you have obviously never dealt firsthand with gangs. Gangs are starting to recruit in middle school and elementary school, you mean to tell me a 7year-old kid knows what they're doing, understands the future consequences of their actions?

Made the choice to fuck.

That's an interesting assumption-as I never said how she got pregnant-maybe she was raped or drugged and didn't believe in abortion, or maybe it was too late for one by the time she found out she was pregnant

she made the choice to steal, rather then go on welfare like most welfare baby makers, rather then return to school after baby is born

sorry in my state you don't get welfare unless you also have a job, you also can't get daycare to go to school(which runs on average $200/week here)unless you have a job.

rather then get a GED[/quote]

can't get a GED here unless you're 19.

[Plaidman]

I'm not even going to attempt to address how totally ignorant that is...(hint we just had a kid age 17 shot on his lunch break from work for refusing to join a gang-join or die sounds a bit like force to me), you have obviously never dealt firsthand with gangs. Gangs are starting to recruit in middle school and elementary school, you mean to tell me a 7year-old kid knows what they're doing, understands the future consequences of their actions?

Assuming the seven year old knows anything? Yes they do. How did the 17 refuse? did he flip the gang off and said fuck off?

That's an interesting assumption-as I never said how she got pregnant-maybe she was raped or drugged and didn't believe in abortion, or maybe it was too late for one by the time she found out she was pregnant

Morning after pill. Heck, there are pills you can take now a week later that would pervent it. Give baby up for adoption. Even if she doesn't want that, she still can get welfare, she still can find ways for free baby supplies, she made the choice to steal.

sorry in my state you don't get welfare unless you also have a job, you also can't get daycare to go to school(which runs on average $200/week here)unless you have a job.

Holy crap. Wish that was like that everywhere. That might work. Most states don't require that. Especally my state, you just fill out an application, lie to the person, and boom, $600 bucks for welfare money, and more from other places. Don't need a job.

can't get a GED here unless you're 19.

Got my GED at 15. Didn't think there was an age requirment.

[BlaqueKatt]

Got my GED at 15. Didn't think there was an age requirment.

there is here-they don't want people "taking the easy way out" or "being able to get a job before their graduating class"

[christopher]

That is just more proof that gangbangers need to be punished more severely if they are trying to drag 7 year olds into their gangs. Prison rehab doesn't seem to be helping them. And if there are anti gang community programs out there, with all this increased gang violence, they aren't working. I have no sympathy towards criminals and their excuses. They are responsible for their actions and should be justly punished for them.

[Eisa]

Want to point out there are a lot of places where you can't GET the morning after pill...pharmacists are allowed to refuse to give it out, I believe...

I'm against the death penalty. 100% against it. And that's with being a victim of rape. I could probably list off almost ten separate charges for ONE person, with all the shit he did to me. Do I want him to be killed? No. Murdering them back doesn't solve anything. There's not even the slightest chance that they could realize what they did was wrong and try to make amends. I did a speech on this and I can't recall the figures offhand, but it's something like a million dollars more to try a death penalty case than a life without parole case...and most of the time, after appeals, it's commuted to life without parole, anyway. So bye-bye all that money that could be put to far better use. I also agree that one innocent person put to death is one person too many.

I also agree that "torture" is NOT the way to get people to stop offending.

If you want to just kill off everyone who commits a crime, then fine. But that's not going to make the world perfect and it's not anything but justice and revenge. Sorry.

[Plaidman]

Want to point out there are a lot of places where you can't GET the morning after pill...pharmacists are allowed to refuse to give it out, I believe...

Correct. They are perfectly allowed to refuse. But not every single pharmacist is going to refuse. Live in a tiny one pharmacist hamlet? Go to next city. Don't have a car? Ask a friend. Have no friends or friends with car? Talk to police that hey, the pharmacist is refusing, and I don't want a rapists baby. They refuse? Call lawyer. There are plenty of ways to do it, if you know, ya freaking try more then once and don't give up because you failed once.

I'm against the death penalty. 100% against it.

Agreed, though I've been severeally tempted alot.

I also agree that "torture" is NOT the way to get people to stop offending.

Perhaps. It very likely stop alot of people who don't like being tortured.

Problem with the punishment systems, is that everyone is different and reacts different to everything. It's why murderers and rapists spend their vaction in prison, get out and do it again, with increased education, and a better understanding of how they get caught. Justice system cradles these people and treat them with huge amounts of kindness and respect, while brushing off their victims like they are pieces of shit, and it's nothing.

Big muscle guys in prison have no fear of being raped or beaten in prison, they'd easy overcome and rule the other prisoners through fear and intimidation, or charisma. So he's the king in prison. Not really any punishment there. Throw him in a cell, where he has no power over others? Where he cannot talk or see or hear and just simmer in darkness, with only a few hours for education? He'd very likely no longer commit crimes any more. Do the same punishment to a different criminal? He'd have the time of his life. He wouldn't suffer a day, and he go right back to commiting crimes when he's released.

THey state the punishent must fit the crime. The punishment needs to fit the criminal. Not all criminals are going to learn from same punishents as others.

And people act like 30 percent that don't recommit is great? Wow. So 10 murders and rapists get caught and do the same program, only 3 of them will no longer rape and murder. That is freaking awesome. THat system works GREAT!

[christopher]

Exactly. Even 1 repeat offender is 1 too many. Coddling these prisoners gets us nowhere. I agree that we shouldn't spend millions of dollars on murder trials, but there needs to be a better, cheaper way to effectively ensure these criminals get the punishment due to them. Far too often life imprisonment just means 5 to 10 years and out for good behavior. And the victims get no justice. Life should mean life. No more pampering, goodies from the canteen, cable, gym, every comfort we have on the outside world. No more. They do not deserve it. I understand that many people here don't like the thought of punishing criminals, but if we fail to enforce our laws and fail to punish these criminals suitably, our society will fall.

[Ipecac Drano]

Exactly. Even 1 repeat offender is 1 too many. Coddling these prisoners gets us nowhere. I agree that we shouldn't spend millions of dollars on murder trials, but there needs to be a better, cheaper way to effectively ensure these criminals get the punishment due to them.

Like giving them training and education? Sadly, a lot of bloodthirsty people would rather pay the taxes to see prisoners get The Chair instead of having money go to programs that teach job skills. A great number of criminals have no way out of the crime loop.

Far too often life imprisonment just means 5 to 10 years and out for good behavior.

"5 to 10 years"? That's hardly the norm or more. Anybody who gets out after 5 to 10 years most likely wasn't imprisoned for that severe of a crime in the first place.

And the victims get no justice.

They never do. Just because the bad guy got put away, it doesn't mean that loved ones come back from the grave, etc.

No more pampering, goodies from the canteen, cable, gym, every comfort we have on the outside world.

Yeah, prison rations are great...

No more. They do not deserve it. I understand that many people here don't like the thought of punishing criminals, but if we fail to enforce our laws and fail to punish these criminals suitably, our society will fall.

There are other things that would do us in faster than not inflicting severe penalties on criminals.