People getting pissed because a thread isn't going the way they think it should

[Sage Blackthorn]

Ok, I've tried not being annoyed, but it's not working. So I'm just gonna talk about it and maybe getting this off my chest will help me feel better.

I'm a member of a forum set up by a Lakota author primarily for discussing his books. It's suppose to be a place where Lakota and Non-Lakota can come together to talk and learn from one another. But over the years, a lot of the Non-Lakota end up being the butt of jokes and outright hostility form the other members. Getting tired of it, they leave. This has cause some strife on the forum as people are making complaints. On the flip side of the coin, many of the Lakota members have left, saying that what's being discusssed is all fluffy-crap and not what real Lakota culture is.....but then they refuse to talk about a lot of things, claiming it's not ment for "wasicu", but for Lakota only. Which leaves nothing else to talk about but the superficial stuff....aka "fluffy-crap". So a lot of the Lakota members have left, getting fed up with all the "fluffy-crap". Other's have taken it upon themselves to be some sort of forum vigilante, jumping on people's case when a thread doesn't go the way they think it should be.

So that's some of the background of what's going on. Now recently one of my friends posted a thread there titled "What does Halloween Mean to Indian Communities" in the General Discussions Area, not in the Lakota Discussions Area. He'd mentioned that most European countries don't celebrate Halloween, with the exception of Britain, which he thought did. Other members had made posts about the origins of Halloween with no problem. About how the tradition is derived from various practices of the Celts, various European legends, and the general history of Halloween. So I made a post pointing out that in Britain, they celebrate "Guy Fawx Day" commemorating the attempt to blow up Parliament on November 5th by Guy Fawx. I added a bit more to the discussion on the history of Halloween that I'd come across. And almost imediately, one of the other members makes a short, snarky post that said :

OK....now I see why the forum is in such poor shape. NO ONE CAN FREAKIN READ! Take note of the title of this thread!

What the hell? We're having a nice, polite discussion about what is primarily an AMERICAN SECULAR HOLIDAY derived from EUROPEAN CELTIC PRACTICES and just got to talking about it's history and how it came to be when he made this post. ANY discussion of Halloween is BOUND to involve talking about it's history. And because we're talking about it's history, laying a foundational understanding of how it came to be for the discussion, one member has accused everyone in the dicussion, and in a sense the entire forum, of not being able to "freakin read!" just because we have YET gotten to discussion of how Halloween is celebrated on the Lakota reservations. In fact this same member's earlier post showed, I think, a casual disregard for the tradition:

Its a day when kids dress up in goofy scarey costumes and go get carbs from the neighbors. Was it supposed to be something else?

Now a lot of the Lakota members of the forum (before the left to get away from the fluffy-crap, as they put it) would rail against how the dominant culture of the wasicu was always appropriating their traditions, or how they are always being coerced to "assimilate" and give up their traditions. And here is a discussion about just that: How the Lakota people are taking up the practice of Halloween, a secular holiday that has it's roots in the fall gatherings of the Victorian Era of New England, peppered with practices derived from the Celts brought by Scots/Irish immigrants (from Europe) in the form of Jack-O-Lanterns and Trick-or-Treating. All things that were being talked about, and all things that seemed to be in line with the title of the thread my friend started. But before we could get to talking about what halloween means to Indians (remember we'd just gotten started talking about it), this guy has to start being a prick after only myself and one other forum member made a single post each.

And with Halloween over with until next year, it seems that no one else wants to jump into the discussion or fight over it. So the thread has essentially been shut down. But damnit I'm still pissed that it seems like every time an Non-Lakota posts ANYTHING there, someone gets on our case. Even when it's something we've studied and know a lot about. Maybe people are talking about "fluffy-crap" because no one wants to talk with the Non-Lakota about more serious issues. No one wants to listen, or even consider the idea that an outsider just MIGHT see something they don't simply because they aren't as close to the problem.

The forum that all this is taking place on is an attempt to bring some understanding between two peoples. And at this point it's failing miserably and people are leaving in droves because of crap like this going on. I've been there more than a year, and all it's done has made the divisions more apparent. Yeah, people show up with myths and misconceptions and their heads full of romantic notions about who and what the Lakota are. But instead of taking the opportunity to educate the public about their culture, all a large portion of the Lakota membership seem to be doing are rideculing and insulting all the Non-Lakota and even many of the Lakota who aren't "full bloods". All they are doing is throwing up more barriers, more walls between understanding one another.

I dunno, as many friends as I have there, maybe it would be better for me personally just to leave. Not just stop posting (since whenever I post something this guy comes out and posts something that effectively shuts down the discussion because he's one of the long-time members....not to mention one of the most out-spoken about not telling "the wasicu" anything) but just stop reading. I'm really getting tired of trying to swim upstream, and as much as I want to learn more about Lakota culture, I don't think I can learn it there with such opposition. I'm always being told "You have to come to the Rez' to really learn" but I don't have the ability to travel to South Dakota right now. Learning from books is a poor substitute. Oh, and I also keep getting told "While yer here, you have to goto the Casino. You gotta gamble if you want to be Lakota." Yeah, it may be a joke, but it's not funny. I hate Las Vegas, I don't gamble there. Why the hell would I goto the Rez to gamble? Casinos aren't a tradtional feature of Lakota life from what little I've been taught...... and it's kind of ironic this is coming from a lot of the same people who complain about assimilation.

I guess in the end, I'm just getting tired of it all and I can't decide if the benefits of staying outweigh the crap I'll have to put up with

[Rageaholic]

Ugh, I know the type you're talking about. This one member of a forum I've been on for years would always find stuff to bitch people out over. She'd make snarky comments toward newbs for things like posting in the wrong sub forum, making minor spelling or grammer errors, posting a topic that already had an existing thread. She wasn't even a mod, but sure as hell acted like one and probably thought she should be one.

Even worse, she'd have friends who would back her up. When ever someone would dare speak against her, all her friends would jump to her defense and tear them a new one.

I think it's understandable for the topic starter to be poed about off topic discussions, but when members start bossing others around, it gets bad.

[Sage Blackthorn]

Ugh, I know the type you're talking about. This one member of a forum I've been on for years would always find stuff to bitch people out over. She'd make snarky comments toward newbs for things like posting in the wrong sub forum, making minor spelling or grammer errors, posting a topic that already had an existing thread. She wasn't even a mod, but sure as hell acted like one and probably thought she should be one.

Even worse, she'd have friends who would back her up. When ever someone would dare speak against her, all her friends would jump to her defense and tear them a new one.

I think it's understandable for the topic starter to be poed about off topic discussions, but when members start bossing others around, it gets bad.

Things get more complicated as the forum Moderators have been pretty silent when things like this happen (tacit approval perhaps?) People are posting things like "Has the forum died?" and "Why isn't there more activity on the forum?" Gee whiz Batman, I wonder why that could be? Could it be that no one likes being put down and yelled at whenever they speak up about anything. Even making a casual comment results in another round of "let's make fun of the wasicu." And people wonder why no one wants to post anymore?

[Greenday]

I hate it when I go into a thread, read the OP, think it's a good topic, then skip to the most recent conversation and it has nothing to do with the OP and I don't give a crap about it.

[Sage Blackthorn]

I hate it when I go into a thread, read the OP, think it's a good topic, then skip to the most recent conversation and it has nothing to do with the OP and I don't give a crap about it.

Gee, that's kinda like jumping into the middle of a conversation without knowing what was said before hand. My boss at work actually does this all the time, and everyone gets annoyed at him for it. Instead of waiting and listening and getting a handle on what the conversation is about, he'll hear the last comment that was said, and more often than not, say something that has absolutely nothing to do with what's being discussed. Then he winds up looking very foolish when someone says "Uh, that's nice, but it doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about." Then he gets upset and stomps off and complains that no one is including him. Strangely enough, if he would just stop and listen and get the gist of the conversation before joining in, then he wouldn't be making completley unrelated comments. Or, once he knows which way the conversation has progressed, he could then decide if he even had anything worth adding to what had already been said.

But as I've said before, Thread Drift happens. As people talk, one person may say something that give someone else an idea. Then they post their idea, and that evokes something new from another person. Ya' never know just where a conversation may lead when people are free to express themselves. Which brings us back to the problem of people who get pissed that a thread isn't going the way they want it, and start leaving snarky comments like the guy I mentioned in my original post.

[Greenday]

Threads don't get big enough, fast enough for me to miss multiple pages without me purposely ignoring a thread. I'm on here more than pretty much anyone. If I get on here and there's a new topic and I somehow missed the entire thing. I'll read the first couple posts, the last page, and the previous page before that. If that doesn't explain how it got to where it is at, then it's pointless to me.

[Amanita]

Sage, it's a shame about the forum you mentioned. I sometimes read the blog entries over at www.racialicious.com, and there is a lot of discussion about appropriation of Native culture by people who don't know what they are doing. Yet, if us white folk try to do the right thing and educate ourselves, we get chased away or bitched at, by people with the attitudes that you mention- "Let's make fun of the white people!"
Race relations and double standards is kind of a hot button for me, for what it's worth. I feel that attitudes like "making fun of the white people" only set back the cause of race relations, and contribute to the cycle of hurt and recrimination, not to mention playing into the hands of bigots, who use that "white people suck" mentality to justify their own hatred of "insert minority here".

As for members of a forum bossing each other around, I HATE that. If a newbie posts something against forum rules, it's one thing for somebody to say to them "Just an FYI, but the mods don't like it when people cuss/post personal info/whatever", so that the newbie can go back and correct their mistake before they get modsmacked.
But there's a difference between simply informing somebody of a rule, and being an arrogant prick about it.

I read and post on an NYC travel forum, and there's two members there who really, truly irritates me. They say they are 9/11 family members, but take it upon themselves to police any discussion about the WTC and 9/11, as if they are the sole arbiters of what people are allowed to say, and what is respectful. I got snarled at in a private message for asking about wearing a 9/11 commemorative pin as a tribute, with the word "tribute" put in quotations, as though wearing a token to commemorate the dead was the most disrespectful thing, ever.

Another member (not the 9/11 relative) described how they went through a phase where they wanted to learn all they could about the WTC, and I commiscerated, saying that I could relate, having been fascinated by the towers for a long time before 9/11 even happened. I said that I had always admired the towers and missed them- this was horribly disrespectful and worthy of a smackdown. Saying I loved the towers apparently debases anyone who lost people, apparently. In that same discussion, another person said how much they hated it when people sent them offensive political emails containing inflammatory statements, and graphic 9/11 pics, with no warning as to what those messages contained. I agreed with that person too, stating that while I might have done artwork and writings pertaining to 9/11, I would never just spring them on the unsuspecting in surprise emails, understanding that it's a sensitive subject and not everyone wants to see that, or is ready for it.
Again, I got jumped on, for "trying to make the thread all about my hobbies". Excuse the fuck outta me?

My opinion is that perhaps these two posters need to stop policing 9/11 discussion, and perhaps consider that because of what they've been through, they are too emotionally involved to be objective, and are seeing offense where none is meant. While I sympathize with their loss, I really can't stand self righteous policing, where anyone who disagrees or sees things through different lenses MUST be some sort of disrespectful rube who needs to be smacked down.

[Eisa]

I have to be circumspect about how to word this, but the policing people/jumping on people, I've run into.

There's a support forum I'm on that had a thread about BDSM and healing [from sexual abuse]. In it, you could share positive experiences or negative experiences--it just had to be related to healing. No wandering off into BDSM territory.

So I and a few other people mentioned the positives, what helped, how it helped, etc. Well, there was one person in particular who had had some bad experiences with it. And we weren't discounting that at all, it was only about our OWN personal experiences. She started jumping down everyone's throat...if you posted ANYTHING positive about BDSM, she was RIGHT there, telling you how you were deluded, you weren't healing, you just didn't know better yet, your partner is horrible for doing that to you, it's really really bad...just on and on and ON. To the point that I couldn't take it anymore and PM'ed a mod and told her that while we perfectly understood this person's viewpoint and that she had a right to feel that way about it, she was making people feel awful, triggering them, and it just wasn't needed. So they actually ended up creating two different threads, for one positive experiences and one for negative, and said that they were going to police them quite strongly from now on, so nobody felt that way anymore. So that at least had a happier ending.

[protege]

I've run into several groups like that over the years. Not surprising, since too many assholes think they're anonymous on the 'net. Anyway, the most recent one, was when I tried to join a Pennsylvania RR-themed discussion group. Signing up was no problem--I filled in the blanks, and all was good.

Or so I thought. The first post I made, was a simple question about some of the PRR classes of passenger cars. All I was after, was did they keep their same number series after the 1968 Penn Central (PRR merged with the New York Central, their arch-rival) merger, and possibly some info on how the cars were finished inside. I thought, that since PC didn't have a long history of passenger service, that the PRR list would be of better use.

Sadly, that wasn't the case. No sooner did that message go up, and I got several replies blasting me. Specifically, on how the PC was crap, and how I shouldn't waste their time with that shit.

Uh, excuse me? All I'm after is some info. What the fuck did I do to deserve such treatment! I'm not eating your first born. It's not my fault your beloved PRR isn't around any more. It's been gone over 40 years--get over it and/or go fuck yourselves.

I belong to several Penn Central lists, am a sustaining member of the PC Historical Society, plus I belong to a couple of Conrail (PC's 1976 successor)...and those guys were more than happy to help me out. Plenty of PRR/PC equipment survived into Conrail. I only went with the PRR list, simply because I thought they'd have more info. Yet, those guys were willing to not only send me info, but to post *more* info, not to mention sending me a couple of scanned slides.

...and now that I've bored everyone with my railroad hobbies...

As for race relations and double-standards, all I can say is... What the fuck? These idiots should be happy that "whitey" is at least making an effort to understand their customs. Making fun of whitey will *not* help race relations at all. All that does is to drive people further apart, and in some cases, serve to *justify* things that racists do.

[Andara Bledin]

Threads don't get big enough, fast enough for me to miss multiple pages without me purposely ignoring a thread. I'm on here more than pretty much anyone. If I get on here and there's a new topic and I somehow missed the entire thing. I'll read the first couple posts, the last page, and the previous page before that. If that doesn't explain how it got to where it is at, then it's pointless to me.

Gee, that's a shame and all, but I'm not quite sure how that ties in with Sage's issue with people posting in threads to bitch that they're not going the way the poster thinks they should be going.

If a forum has a no-drift policy, then fine, report the thread and let the mods sort it out. If not, however, then it should really be the OP's place to pull people back on topic and if the OP seems fine with it, then the other posters should respect that just as much as if the OP requested that respondents stay on topic.

Posting to bitch about thread drift without adding any on topic discussion is worse than drifting in the first place.

^-.-^

[Plaidman]

I like porn. That is all.

[Greenday]

Gee, that's a shame and all, but I'm not quite sure how that ties in with Sage's issue with people posting in threads to bitch that they're not going the way the poster thinks they should be going.

Sometimes you just have to vent and let people know it's pissing you off that people keep doing it. If the mods keep stopping it, it's just the big bad mods being nazis. But if other people say they don't like it, there's a chance the posters might realize people actually want to talk about the OP.

[telecom_goddess]

I like porn. That is all.

What? That was random...and counts as fluffy crap so I don't want it

[Sage Blackthorn]

So it seems I'm not the only one who's encountered people getting pissed because a thread it's going the way THEY want it to, and jump on people's case for it. So the quesiton is: How do you deal with someone like this effectively? How do you handle such posts (since in my case the mod's on that forum are either away, not doing their job, don't give a shit, or are allowing it (tacit approval))? Mostly people just stop adding to the thread, and as a result the forum is slowly going silent. Which is really kinda sad.

One forum member asked a poignant question: Are internet discussion forums just at odds with the Lakota view of the world? Or is it just plain racism rearing it ugly face again. That a few members want the forum to be nothing but Lakota and they want to exclude all non-Lakota by jumping on them?

[Lace Neil Singer]

I've seen that kind of thing happen on other forums... and it nearly always happens on abortion discussion threads. O_o I remember one thread on another board where there was a screaming row going on between two factions; I was a mod then, but since I'd been asleep while it had escalated, I only found out the next morning when I went online.

The vast bulk of the flaming, after I'd read right thru the thread, was coming from a girl who was attacking and accusing anyone pro-choice and calling them "fucking murderers" and "babykillers" whenever they posted a point she disagreed with. Instead of discussing the topic in a rational manner, she responded by flaming and accusing. I locked the thread right away and had a word with the girl. She refused to listen to reason so I reported her to the admin and she ended up being banned for two weeks.