Society gone mad

[linguist]

as one of the "bleeding-heart liberals" that people like to sling insults at, allow me to say that i support using prison labor, with caveats. the prisoners should be provided safe working environments that adhere to all osha standards, along with all necessary equipment and training to safely perform the jobs they're assigned to do. they should also be paid fairly for their work, to be paid in one lump sum to them upon release, or to their families upon their death in the case of those prisoners who are sentenced to life or who die of other causes while in prison. to do otherwise makes them no better than slaves, and we outlawed slavery a long time ago.

[AdminAssistant]

^

What linguist said. I don't think prisoners should be given cushy, new lifestyles, but they shouldn't be treated like slave labor either. And a bit of cash, that they've earned, when they are released might help them get on the right track.

[blas87]

And as a pitchfork toting, rage porn blabbing conservative, I say that hard labor is fair considering what a lot of slime in prison have done. Raped someone? You can dig ditches and pick up shit off the side of the road and you can bust your back building houses and buildings, and forget getting to work out and have air conditioning and TV.

[linguist]

are you really going to trust houses, buildings, roads, etc. built by untrained slave labor working in unsafe conditions?

[Andara Bledin]

I do not believe in the PC bullshit and I also do not believe in "hate" crimes. A crime is a crime no matter who it is against.

This. So-called hate crimes are just one step towards legislating thought crime. That's a road we should never have let anyone go down. When you get down to it, most crimes are hate crimes, it's just a matter of whether or not the person being hated is "protected" or not.

^-.-^

[Amanita]

I agree with linguist, and yes, I consider myself liberal on many issues. I may be quite liberal, but I have come to despise PC- It's become almost like a religion. A religion where questioning the dogma is not allowed. In medieval europe, questioning the dogma of the Catholic church got you branded a heretic. These days, questioning the dogma of PC means you must be some sort of anti-progressive or bigot. Otherwise you wouldn't have a problem, right?

I hate how we're getting- that the most offended make the rules. I've been called ignorant and a "white martyr" because I said that I don't believe in white guilt, that I don't believe in double standards (okay for a non-white to do something, not okay for a white), and that I hate the assumption that whites have nothing to say when it comes to race relations or descrimination. I've been called racist names before, and to me, it's every bit as wrong to call a white person "cracker" as it is to call a black person the "N" word.

About reparations- I don't agree with paying reparations for slavery either- there is nobody still alive today who was actually kept as a slave. Paying reparations for things that happened centuries ago will only hurt the cause of race relations, because it will stir up a lot of resentment. And who would get these reperations? Do you have to prove you had slave ancestors? What kind of proof would be required?

On the other hand, here in Canada there are First Nations people alive who were forced into residential schools, where every attempt was made to "beat the indian out of them". They were abused in every way imaginable. And they still live with the scars. I DO agree with paying reparations to them, as they were the ones who suffered the trauma, not their distant ancestors.

On the matter of PC, what's offensive, and who has "privelege" to get offended by things, I've mentioned 9/11 before. I mentioned on a cosplay forum once that I had thought about (just thought about, not actually planning to do) a costume depicting the WTC's towers as angels. Hoo boy. I had people absolutely freaking out- how dare I! They ignored the part where I said "thought about it, most likely not ever going to do", because it would be hard to find a partner- most of my friends here would be unsuitable for a number of reasons, either way too tall or too short next to me, likely to get drunk and embarrass me, or just not into it. I've only got one friend who would be good, and she lives too far away. That, and given the quality of my costuming work, constructing two costumes would be hella expensive.

According to them, even thinking about a cosplay idea like that made me an awful person. How dare I? I don't have privelege! I'm not a New Yorker, I didn't lose anybody, I have no "context". I call complete and utter bullshit. I actually had a few people on the forum agreeing with me, but only in PM's- they were too afraid to openly challenge the offended ones and tell them to grow up. One person said "It's a shame they couldn't be adults, after all, you said you weren't likely to do it"
About the whole idea of privelege- that only certain people are allowed to say or do certain things, I call bullshit. If Bill Cosby can question the dearth of father figures in the black community, so can anyone. If a pair of NYC'ers can dress up as tower-angels, then so can anyone else, dammit.

BTW, this is how I would do a Tower-angel:
http://yfrog.com/1gwtcangelcolorsj
In some people's minds, it's no different than doing this, that there is zero difference between tribute and mockery, unless you have the "privelege" I mentioned earlier:
http://www.wtfcostumes.com/world_tra...e.php#comments

You know? The more screaming I hear from self-righteous people, the more I actually want to do the Tower-as-guardian-angel, just to tell the PC, looking-to-be-offended, see-everything-in-black-and-white crowd to suck it. I'm not making fun of those who lost loved ones, or those who suffered in other ways, and I never would. I've just had it with people who look to get offended over things, or who believe that their way of coping with/percieving/ expressing is the ONLY acceptable way, and everyone else needs to be punished for their thoughtcrime.

[guywithashovel]

One time, I saw a T-shirt that said something like "White Male: What Have You Been Blamed for Today?" That may be an exaggeration, but there is some truth to it. Take the abortion debate, for example (I've used this before, but it bears repeating). On one side, you have the pro-choicers, many of whom think pro-lifers are all a bunch of sexist white men trying to keep women down. On the other hand, you have pro-lifers who seem to think that abortion exists so that white males can go around haphazardly screwing any woman they find remotely attractive. Both sides of that debate have their fingers pointed right at me, it seems.

One argument that I've heard against having prisoners do work (e.g. digging ditches, repairing buildings) is that it would take work away from the good people. I guess I can see some logic in that. Then again, maybe the people who would have originally done that work could supervise the inmates as they do it. However, that would be a big job, since I do think liguist makes a good point about trusting buildings that have been built/remodeled by prisoners.

I remember one time in eighth grade, our music teacher read us a brochure about the juvenile detention center that offending kids in the area got sent to. When the kids first arrived there, they got the essentials and not much else. However, they could earn more privileges through good behavior and school performance. Basically, with good behavior and grades, they could move up a series of levels, and at each level there would be more privileges and fun stuff they could do, like more recreational time as well as TV time in the evenings. I think this approach in the prisons would be good. Perhaps some are already doing it.

[Amanita]

I was thinking about Alcatraz after reading this. In some ways, Alcatraz's model was far less than ideal. I've got a book written by a prison doctor who worked at Alcatraz, and he saw inmates who suffered mentally as a result- the isolation and hopelessness became too much to bear.
But at the same time, other inmates gave Alcatraz their grudging respect, saying that as much as the strict rules sucked, Alcatraz was one of the fairest, best-run prisons they had been in.

As guywithashovel believes, a warden at Alcatraz once said "You get food, clothing, and medical care. Anything else is a privelege."

[Rageaholic]

All the PC stuff does is create resentment. Because we're all afraid of offending someone, discussing things can be like walking on coals. I think those who get offended at the drop of a hat need to take that stick out of their ass and learn what real racism is.

As for prisons, rapists and murders are scum and it's hard to feel much sympathy towards them. But do those whose only crime are drug possesion, driving without a license, or writting a bad check deserve such harsh treatment? I don't think so. That's the problem I have with making prisons worse. I even started a thread on it.

http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?t=3782

[Kimmik]

The thing is, for people that are not high risk have them build a house, it would teach them a trade. Why not help rehabbing a run down section, or out in the fields helping with farming, and no they shouldn't get wages for working. It should be considered working to pay off the debt to society. I mean prisons are not cheap to run.. and then there is feeding and clothing.. etc. I mean people pay to go to college to learn trades. And from my experience is that when you give felons skills and something to be proud of they have a better chance of reintegrating.

[Andara Bledin]

We actually have rules already in place for felons who earn money while in jail. Something about a portion to the state, a portion to the victim (or something similar), and the remainder for the felon (or their family for lifers).

I don't have the time or inclination to actually look it up at the moment.

^-.-^

[guywithashovel]

Another thing I think should be considered is that taking prisoners out and having them do jobs presents an escape risk that is probably bigger than is faced within the prison.

Maybe I don't have an accurate view of this, but personally, from what I've seen, I think prisons are pretty rough the way they are. I sometimes watch documentaries on prisons, and honestly, I think I'd rather be executed as opposed to living the rest of my life like that. I think sometimes people zero in on minor details of prison life and blow them all out of proportion and act as though prisoners have lives of luxury. I'm reminded of an episode of Nancy Grace I saw a few years ago where she and some other guys were talking about Scott Peterson's life on California's Death Row. Apparently, the inmates on death row have their meals brought to their cells, and in her characteristic fashion, Nancy was up on her soapbox claiming "I can't believe he's getting breakfast in bed every day! I guess I should go out and kill someone!" Yeah, never mind the fact that he's lost all his basic freedoms (as he deserves to) and he's sitting around waiting to be executed (perhaps he deserves that, too). They're bringing his meals to his cell. What a life of luxury!

Actually, the reason they probably bring their meals to them is because it's safer. In one of the prison documentaries I saw, they said that the cafeteria is one of the most dangerous places in the prison because all the inmates are in there together, and they far outnumber the guards. If I ran a prison, I'd probably want to take their food to their cells, too.

Also, several years ago, I served on a grand jury, and after it was over, they gave us a tour of the county jail. After the tour was over, one of the ladies I served with commented, "Gee, they get all their meals cooked for them, and they get a place to stay. What's the point in working and trying to make a living? I ought to just get sent to jail and get it all done for me."

Okay, whatever. If you were in jail, you *would* get your meals cooked for you, but you would also have lost your freedom to come and go as you please, and all you could wear would be the drab jail clothes they give you. I think I'll stick with working for a living.

In closing, if you disagree, that's fine. But please don't act like someone is saying prisons should resemble luxury resorts just because he/she doesn't think prisons should be like the Hanoi Hilton. That's really no different from hearing someone say "I think women have the right to an abortion" and responding with "UR A BABY KILLER!!!! U WANT ALL BABIEZ 2 DIE!!!!!!ELEVENTY1111111"

[linguist]

Why not help rehabbing a run down section, or out in the fields helping with farming, and no they shouldn't get wages for working. It should be considered working to pay off the debt to society.

so it's not a system of slavery you're endorsing, it's a system of indentured servitude.

oh wait. they're pretty much the same thing. and both illegal.

[fireheart17]

One time, I saw a T-shirt that said something like "White Male: What Have You Been Blamed for Today?" That may be an exaggeration, but there is some truth to it. Take the abortion debate, for example (I've used this before, but it bears repeating). On one side, you have the pro-choicers, many of whom think pro-lifers are all a bunch of sexist white men trying to keep women down. On the other hand, you have pro-lifers who seem to think that abortion exists so that white males can go around haphazardly screwing any woman they find remotely attractive. Both sides of that debate have their fingers pointed right at me, it seems.

Interestingly, that's never occurred in Australia. The "white male" argument just tends to fit in with the "what rights does the father have?" argument. The following two stereotypes tend to be Australian only as far as I know. WE don't get as many extremists around here and not many abortion clinics are bombed.

Stereotypical pro-lifer (from the pro-choice view)=Nutjob who spends his/her time harassing young girls and women outside abortion clinics. Or, if you're like Trevor Grace, run a political campaign based around it.

Stereotypical pro-choicer (from the pro-lifer view)=girl/woman who wants to use abortion as a form of contraception/baby killer/spawn of satan/should've used a condom/should've somehow magically resisted sex/should've dressed up like a puritan so a man wouldn't rape her etc. etc.

By the way, note I said STEREOTYPICAL-not saying that's actually true.

[Skelly]

Another thing I think should be considered is that taking prisoners out and having them do jobs presents an escape risk that is probably bigger than is faced within the prison.

Fit them with explosive collars before letting them out to work. They do a runner, a small charge of C4 pops their heads off by remote .