Society gone mad

[Kimmik]

so it's not a system of slavery you're endorsing, it's a system of indentured servitude.

oh wait. they're pretty much the same thing. and both illegal.

Actually no. Please do not put words into my mouth. One of my felon relatives worked putting out fires. They were trained and sent to help the fire teams with wild fires. I am not saying send lifers or high risk inmates out, but I am saying is why are they any better then someone who gets sentenced to community service? Why can't they do community service? Trust me you don't get paid to do community service as it is a punishment.

Also:
Amendment 13 - Slavery Abolished. Ratified 12/6/1865. History

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

For pete's sake the reason there is a high re-offend rate is that they do not give them any skills for the outside. Teach them a trade, skill, ability so that when they do get out they are more prepared. Work with companies that need general labor so that they can get a job.

I am not say omg they broke the laws beat them and feed them dirt. Half my family has been in almost every pen in a few states. These are people that I love even if i was hurt by their actions and crimes. But the one that worked the fire line, they even told me that one it helped pass the time and two it showed them that they could make a difference even with their multiple felonies.

I am also one to say: once they have done their time stop punishing them by keeping freedoms from them... except for violent offenders... they dont need guns or weapons.

[linguist]

. I am not saying send lifers or high risk inmates out, but I am saying is why are they any better then someone who gets sentenced to community service? Why can't they do community service? Trust me you don't get paid to do community service as it is a punishment.

true, however community service is a sentence most often given in lieu of incarceration, or to be served after incarceration. someone sentenced to community service still has the freedom to come and go when not performing said service. if a prisoner is incarcerated, being removed from society is how they are paying their debt. to to strip them of their freedom and then force them into labor on top of that is the very definition of slavery.

[Rageaholic]

true, however community service is a sentence most often given in lieu of incarceration, or to be served after incarceration. someone sentenced to community service still has the freedom to come and go when not performing said service. if a prisoner is incarcerated, being removed from society is how they are paying their debt. to to strip them of their freedom and then force them into labor on top of that is the very definition of slavery.

I agree with this. I believe that only extreme crimes should forfet a persons rights, but can those who commit such atrocities be trusted? I don't think so.

[Kimmik]

t if a prisoner is incarcerated, being removed from society is how they are paying their debt. to to strip them of their freedom and then force them into labor on top of that is the very definition of slavery.

No it is not slavery. They use jail inmates to clean the sides of the roads, parks and stuff. The California Youth Authority does stuff like that and they are an penal system. Please do read the amendment I quoted.

[linguist]

No it is not slavery.

then what would you call stripping people of their freedom and forcing them to work for no pay?

They use jail inmates to clean the sides of the roads, parks and stuff. The California Youth Authority does stuff like that and they are an penal system. Please do read the amendment I quoted.

i have read it, and just because it's done makes doesn't make it any more right from a human rights perspective.

an 1871 (i believe) virginia supreme court decision declared prisoners "slaves of the state," therefore by virtue of them being declared slaves, use of their labor constitutes slavery. then there's the whole government hypocrisy issue, wherein the 1930 tariff act bans the import of goods made by prison (slave) labor, so someone in the government clearly saw it as wrong, yet the government continues to use prison (slave) labor within our own borders.

if you want to use prison labor under the guise of "community service," it should be on a strictly voluntary basis, and those who do volunteer, particularly for more dangerous jobs, should be rewarded with an appropriate reduction of their sentence.

[Aethian]

then what would you call stripping people of their freedom and forcing them to work for no pay?

In the manner of jail systems? Payment for the money being spent on housing and feeding of their butts. They get pay by not having to pay for room and board. On top of that several places have very awesome health care.

They are being allowed outside in the fresh air after being free before and messing up their life, their families lives, their victims lives... ect. I say they need to get to working and less cable.

[linguist]

In the manner of jail systems? Payment for the money being spent on housing and feeding of their butts. They get pay by not having to pay for room and board.

"pay by not having to pay for room and board" is nothing more than indentured servitude, which is still tantamount to slavery.

On top of that several places have very awesome health care.
.

several might (and that's a big might), but most have health care that is barely adequate at best, and substandard in quite a few cases.

[Aethian]

"pay by not having to pay for room and board" is nothing more than indentured servitude, which is still tantamount to slavery.

Someone just murdered your Mom, Dad, Grandma, Grandpa, and little dog FiFi. Is it fair for that person to then be in a cell with access to cable tv, a gym membership, three meals a day, doctor onsite, and lets then add in job to get paid for.

[smileyeagle1021]

i have read it, and just because it's done makes doesn't make it any more right from a human rights perspective.

The problem is that we are presuming criminals to be human. I'm sorry, but someone who is capable of committing murder or rape or other such heinous crimes does not deserve the title human and should be treated as such.
I'm all for rehabilitation of non-violent offenders. Shoplifting, burglarly, vandalism, get them into training programs to make them productive members of society. Fraud, embezzlement, other financial crimes, make them repay. Drug charges provide rehab. Etc. Kill someone or rape someone and all bets are off.

Now, back to the topic of politically correct madness. While I do feel there are some areas of political correctness that are fair and valid (there is no reason to use derogatory names and we do have to recognize just how fucked up our past is to avoid repeating it), there is so much that has just gone off the deap end. Rules like never discuss religion at work... fuck you, if there is someone willing to debate the pros and cons of their religion versus another and they can keep it civil, all the more power to them if it doesn't interfere with work. No workplace relationships because it may affect professional conduct... are you nuts? There are literally hundreds of things that can affect professional conduct, not the least of which is relationships OUTSIDE of work, so why punish those who have a relationship at work. Don't even get me started on stupid sexual harrassment rules, where anyone can be offended and report it... they don't even have to be involved, just be offended that something is happening (which kind of goes back to the workplace relationship... theoretically if my fiance worked at the call center and we were to hold hands in the break room, a coworker not comfortable with homosexuality can claim we were harrassing them). Give me a break. People need to grow a pair and learn to deal with life.

[Canarr]

Hooo boy... pass me that can of worms, wouldya?

Now, I'm not touching the rape part; my ten-foot-pole is at the cleaner's. But... kill someone, and you forfeit all human rights? Are you sure about that? Now, premeditated murder, I could get behind that - if you plan someone's death and go through with it, that's a truly heinous act. But what about the other degrees of homicide? Involuntary manslaughter, maybe? Get in a drunken brawl with another guy, he falls down a flight of stairs and breaks his neck - should you be caged like an animal for that? Even if it's "just" for a few years?

Or, even better: throw in the felony murder rule. That way, you can be convicted of murder without even killing anyone! Should someone unter such a conviction be equally "dehumanized", or would you take that as mitigating circumstances?

[smileyeagle1021]

Are you sure about that? Now, premeditated murder, I could get behind that - if you plan someone's death and go through with it, that's a truly heinous act.

that is what I was referring to... I've been up for 26 hours straight now and didn't think to specify... but yes, I was referring specifically to premeditated cold blooded murder. Not even animals will do that.

[Andara Bledin]

The moment we stop convicting innocent people, I'll totally get behind indentured servitude for people in prison.

That includes the white collar assholes who destroy lives financially rather than physically.

^-.-^

[Amanita]

And what about self defense? If some violent home invader breaks into my house or some creepling tries to rape me and the only way to save myself is to kill him, do I deserve to be treated like an animal?
Hmm..Perhaps this prison stuff should get its own thread.

As for Political Correctness, I agree with what Smiley said. I believe PC started out with good intent, and yes I believe that intent matters. Stop calling people by derogatory or hateful names, try to use inclusive language, try to BE inclusive. Unfortunately it's gotten so far out of hand, there are just so many things we can't say or do anymore, because somewhere, somebody may be offended.
It sucks that society is turning into a place where the most offended get to make the rules.

[smileyeagle1021]

And what about self defense? If some violent home invader breaks into my house or some creepling tries to rape me and the only way to save myself is to kill him, do I deserve to be treated like an animal?
.

The difference being, you don't plan to kill someone breaking into your house (unless you have some really weird arrangement where someone breaks in on a regular schedule and you are prepared for them). There is a world of difference between someone who kills out of desperation (kill or be killed) and those who will sit down and plot how to take a life (and actually be able to go through with it).

[Canarr]

that is what I was referring to... I've been up for 26 hours straight now and didn't think to specify... but yes, I was referring specifically to premeditated cold blooded murder. Not even animals will do that.

Okay, granted. There's just something very, very wrong with people who can do this.