'The reason for the season', ect

[Evandril]

This is here instead of the religion section because it's more a rant than a debate, btw

I've studied a decent amount of religions, and while I have no problem with Christians...xtians need to go hide someplace...preferably soon. The difference between the two is mainly in the knowledge of the religion they are *claiming* to follow...the 'true' Christians tend to know their own rules, and as a general rule, don't try and convert people...while the xtains only have the broadest knowledge of the principles they are supposed to be following...and LOVE to convert anyone and everyone. One of the big examples of this comes out around Xmas...ie, Winter Solstice. While Jesus's birth might be celebrated at the end of December, it is, and has been for a long time, a 'Pagan' holiday at it's core. With any research at all, you can figure this out...so why all the hassle about people saying Happy Holidays?!? I can think of at least four holidays around the same time, why catch grief for using the phrase? I've got no objection to Merry Christmas, why can't I say something else as well? Another one that gets me is Halloween on Sunday...why is this suddenly unacceptable? Middle of the week, no problem, Fri/Sat, perfect, but Sunday? The world will end! Are people's faith soo weak that kids dressed up as ninjas on the wrong day will cause them to suddenly become satanists? Or does church service seriously last late enough were there won't be time to get enough candy, so why bother? And if that's the case, why don't we reschedule the Super Bowl, I'm sure it would cause similar problems...

Ok, enough ranting...and again, I've no problems with anyone who doesn't want to force their beliefs onto me...It's just the ones that do have been making my blood boil most of the season

[Andara Bledin]

So, basically, it all boils down to:

I'm offering you wellwishes, so stop having a cow because I didn't phrase them the way you wanted.

I'm down with that.

I also object to not celebrating All Hallows Eve any day other than, you know, All Hallows Eve. However, most of the reason for moving it are secular - Sunday is a school night, after all, but it's one of those nights where little kids are often allowed up way past their bedtimes, so I can understand the desire to move observance up a day and do that on Saturday.

^-.-^

[Evandril]

Oh, there are places that only have Halloween on Fri/Sat, and while I don't *like* that, I can understand it...but to allow it during the week (where bedtimes still apply, in general), but not allow it on Sundays....*shrugs*

[blas87]

I'm with Andara. It's a very common way of being polite and showing goodwill by wishing people a Merry Christmas or a Happy New Year.

People who don't say it to me first, I hold back and just say "Happy Holidays", but I'm tired of worrying about offending people who aren't Christian or are so obsessed with being PC.

I think Glenn Beck had a good cartoon about a PC Christmas a few years ago, to the tune of "Holly Jolly Christmas", making fun of people who have to include every holiday in there and get offended over Christmas trees.

As an extra, I am so sick of people who think Christians are just the worst of the worst and all of them are bible thumping crazy zealots, or have to preface it by "I know not all Christians are bad, but"...... I am damn proud for believing in God and being Protestant, and no one is going to make me feel like a freak for not following the trends of being Atheist or Agnostic or Pagan or whatever the newest popular religion (or lackthereof) is.

[aurelemsrealm]

As for holiday greetings, I'm not particular about how you say it to me so long as the intention to be polite and friendly is there. I generally respond in kind because I consider pleasantries to be more or less interchangeable. I just accept it at face value because at least someone made an effort to be pleasant.

Perhaps I'm cynical for stating this next viewpoint, but it's honestly how I feel. I regard any attempt by the general public to express even a superficial effort at politeness or friendliness to be a mildly impressive feat. It should be a reasonable expectation, but anyone who works with the public can tell you the sad reality we already know. I realize that's not true of every single last customer you meet while working, but I encounter far too many self-absorbed morons who almost reek of the entitlement mindset. Yes, I admit it is a cynical point of view, but I'm being honest about how I feel.

As for holidays themselves, they only mean something to me when I get time off to be with family and friends doing my own thing. When I have to work on a holiday, the holiday just looses all meaning. I'm not even interested in acknowledging it. It's just another unremarkable day to me. Again, some would say I'm being cynical, but I think most would agree if they were stuck working when they'd rather be with people they care about.

For what it's worth, that's my view

[BlaqueKatt]

...... I am damn proud for believing in God and being Protestant, and no one is going to make me feel like a freak for not following the trends of being Atheist or Agnostic or Pagan or whatever the newest popular religion (or lackthereof) is.

Thank you for dismissing valid viewpoints and religions other than yours as "popular trends"

I've been an Atheist since childhood. I was forced to go to church by my parents. I know more about the Christian Religion and the Bible than most christians do.* Coming out as an Atheist in a Christian dominated family and country is as difficult as coming out as homosexual/bisexual. I know, I've done both. Glad to know I'm "just following a trend" And have no right to be proud and voice my opinions because "it might make someone feel bad", oh wait isn't that what this thread is about?

Just because we have finally found our voice, and refuse to be silently pushed around any longer, does not mean it's "trendy".

Trend-the general course or prevailing tendency

hmm us stats on religion....
Christian-78.4%
other-4.7%
Atheist-1.6%

hmmm not real trendy to be atheist


*"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, as well as his own life, he can't be my disciple.

anyone know who said this? It's in the bible.

as is

Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves
the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

but wait

If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

all three contradict each other...all three are the words of Jesus...I'm so confused.

I'm supposed to hate my family, ok, not love anything in the world, ok...but wait if I hate my brother like I'm supposed to do by the first two, I can't love God-how the hell does that even work? I forgot, most people don't have any clue what the bible really says, just what they're told it does.

here have a nice 50 question quiz to test your knowledge

[Amanita]

I got the same thing on a different forum, where we were discussing the etiquette of visiting the WTC site in NYC. (Don't call it Ground Zero, the locals hate that!) A few people expressed open hostility towards anyone wanting to offer prayers at the site. I don't mean street-preacher style screaming, I mean peaceful, personal prayer. One person stated bluntly that anyone who wanted to pray needed to be redirected to St. Paul's, a church nearby.

I stated that that would not work for me- That I was a Pagan, and as such, it would not be okay for me to pray in that church. Visit? Fine. But pray to my own gods in a church dedicated to others? Not fine- it would be disrespecful of both my gods and theirs. For three simple words- "I am Pagan", I was branded an attention seeker, and accused of only stating my religion to be provocative.

Really? Gee, nice to know that my sincerely held belief system is nothing more than a "shock value" device, and a genuine concern on my part, regarding respect for the sacred space of others, and my own dieties is "being provocative".
If there ever was a time I wanted to reach through the internet and smack somebody for ignorance, that was it.

As Blaquekatt said, some of us have finally found our own voice, and won't be pushed around anymore, or silenced. And I say neither will we supress our own beliefs to appease anyone else, or their ignorance.

[blas87]

While I am not the Xtian (is that what they are called?) who goes around spouting off and reciting Bible exerpts, I also refuse to be made to feel stupid or ignorant for what I believe in. Telling me that I believe in a book that is made of lies or contradictions or hypocrisy, and basically saying that I support hate is not going to make me question my faith in God or the Bible.

I don't support hate, hypocrisy, or contradiction. I believe in God and Jesus Christ, that's who I believe in.

[Andara Bledin]

Technically, Xian (or Xtian) is just an alternate spelling of Christian (using X to represent the Greek letter Chi), but it's been co-opted by a number of anti-religious and anti-Christian groups as an insult and a number of Christians find the alternate spelling offensive.

^-.-^

[Evandril]

Technically, Xian (or Xtian) is just an alternate spelling of Christian (using X to represent the Greek letter Chi), but it's been co-opted by a number of anti-religious and anti-Christian groups as an insult and a number of Christians find the alternate spelling offensive.

^-.-^

With me, it's something that came about from a Pagan chat site that would have lots of xtians drop in to try and 'save' us....Which was fun, because we had a few Christians in the room that would beat them about the head and neck with the bible I only use that spelling when it's the people that I do not believe deserve to be called Christians (Blas, I've not seen any reason you'd not be called a Christian, fyi)

If someone wants to wish me a Merry Christmas, I've got no problems with that...and normally say the same back to them, since it seems most polite to me. It's the people who get upset over Happy Holidays and the like that annoy me

[protege]

Damn, not this shit again

Back on topic, I always wish people a Merry Christmas. Where I live, the majority of people celebrate it, and it's a habit. No harm meant...but if someone gets pissed over it, they can go fuck themselves. I won't be rude back. If they want to look like an ass because I wish them well...who am I to stop them? I let them do all the dirty work

Blas, and I hope you don't take offense with this. I'm *not* trying to offend you, OK? The reason why some people get pissed at Christians, is that not all of them are like you. They're of the type that if you don't believe exactly what they do...you're going to hell. And yes, I've had to deal with that sort of thing. I was brought up in a strict Catholic household. Mom dragged me to church on Sunday, I went to Catholic grade school, etc. But after being told that I'd "never amount to anything," by the nuns and priests at said school... I started to question things, and felt like my prayers weren't being answered. I grew tired of being told "believe this or else," when nobody could answer *why* I should.

Guys, I have no problems with Christians...as long as they respect my beliefs. Unfortunately, many Christians (or people who *claim* to be Christian) do not. They don't *want* to respect other religions or viewpoints. My feeling is, I'll respect yours, provided you respect mine. Don't want to do that? Fine. All bets are off, and you're on my shit list

With that said, Christmas, at least to me, has always been a time for friends and family. Sure, we open a crapload of presents, but more time is spent visiting with relatives, and being merry

[ExRetailDrone]

I've never understood the big to-do with the Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays issue. I haven't considered myself a Christian for a very long time, but I hold no ill will towards people who wish me a Merry Christmas. I've never been Jewish, but if someone wants to wish me a Happy Hanukkah, I'm cool with that, too. It all comes down to intentions in regards to this subject for me. If you are wishing me well, regardless of what wording you use, that's awesome and I will reciprocate!

I had to work all day this last Christmas, and I wished people both Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, depending on which popped to mind first. I didn't get any dirty looks, thankfully. I had good intentions for both and wanted people to go enjoy the day, whatever it means to them. I simply cannot understand why this is a bad thing to some people.

Of course, I also don't understand why people believing in what makes the most sense to them is a big deal when it has no effect on me personally. If they try to convert me or disrespect my beliefs? Yeah, I have a problem with that. But if they're just living their lives how they think is best for them and leave me to live mine the way I think is best for me, we can get along just peachy! I have friends from all different belief systems; I respect their beliefs and they respect mine, and we never try to say that one is "right" while the other is "wrong". I feel there can be no right and wrong in these matters, because honestly, no one really knows for sure. Live and let live, and all that.

[guywithashovel]

The whole Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays thing really sucks the fun out of that time of year. Honestly, from my observation, most of the ruckus comes from the conservative Christians and the Fox News crowd. Most atheists, pagans, Jews, etc. don't seem to give a crap about what others say.

You want to know why people say Happy Holidays around Christmastime? It's because there is more than one holiday being celebrated. You have Christmas, and then the very next week you have New Year. The vast majority of people who say that are just killing two birds with one stone. On top of that, there are also other holidays going on, like Hanukkah, the Winter Solstice, the Islamic New Year, and so on. Granted, most people here in North America don't celebrate those holidays, but there are still some who do.

Bottom line, someone who says Happy Holidays is likely not trying to "take Christ out of Christmas." Heck, our predominately Christian society has already done a good enough job of that already. Whenever Christmastime starts to come around, most people who celebrate the holiday, be they active Christians or not, seem to be spending most of their time thinking about gifts, shopping, what to prepare for the holiday dinner, whose house to go to for get-togethers, whether or not they'll get through Christmas dinner without smacking one of their in-laws, etc. Jesus's birth doesn't seem to be occupying much of their thoughts.

Honestly, even amongst people who claim Jesus Christ as their Savior, the guy doesn't seem to be a very big part of the day. So I don't see how some atheist or Wiccan could be so guilty of "taking Christ out of Christmas" when he really doesn't seem to be there in the first place.