people who want to coddle criminals

[Andara Bledin]

Legalizing mary-jane is a whole other can of worms. I agree it would open up tons of space in prison, but letting everyone get high whenever they want isn't the answer, either.

I love these arguments. They're so over reactionary.

If cannabis were legalized, it would have the same regulations imposed upon it that smoking and alcohol do. You aren't allowed to light up or toss a few back "whenever you want," so why does everybody think that legalization would open some mythic floodgate? Oh, but we'd get regulation (taxes from fines to business owners, who usually have the money and interest to pay plus taxes from sales = revenue gained) and we'd get half of our prison systems emptied (no longer housing, feeding, and providing health care for millions of people = revenue not lost).

Regardless, this is tangential to the issue at hand.

I love that so many scream that we need to babysit and love rapists and murderers.

First, if our justice system was even remotely just, I'd be all for having the rapists and actual murderers taken out back and shot. Hell, most people don't care about justice, anyway; they're out for revenge, plain and simple.

But even if it were, nobody really cares as much about their comfort as they do about the rest of us not becoming the monsters we're supposed to have locked up. We're supposed to be a civilized society, and I really don't get why people get so bent out of shape every time someone else feels the need to remind the rest of us of that fact.

But people CAN go to work as high as they want, because they'll be under /medical reasons/ claim, which companies cannot fire or even suspend for without being sued back and losing.

No, they can't. Anything that impairs your ability to do your job that isn't the actual disability isn't protected like that.

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[Plaidman]

*sigh* They didn't go to the place with a tank because someone did a joint. They went to the place because they were under the impression the place had armor piercing rounds. Alot different then someone smoking a joint. Read your own link yourself next time.

As for the drug runners, it isn't an over stretch. There ya are a lone cop minding your own patrol when drug runners start to shoot at you. What do you do? Wait for the army to come, or ask for backup with other police that will get there alot faster then the army? Your making it sound like he's just on the border waiting for anyone to come.

First, if our justice system was even remotely just, I'd be all for having the rapists and actual murderers taken out back and shot. Hell, most people don't care about justice, anyway; they're out for revenge, plain and simple.


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What does shooting rapists and murderers solve? Won't bring their victims back. They need to be punished and to learn it.

[Andara Bledin]

What does shooting rapists and murderers solve? Won't bring their victims back. They need to be punished and to learn it.

What are lifers learning? What are we teaching them? From what I can tell, most of the message seems to be "don't get caught."

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[Bronzebow]

*sigh* They didn't go to the place with a tank because someone did a joint. They went to the place because they were under the impression the place had armor piercing rounds. Alot different then someone smoking a joint. Read your own link yourself next time.

A *sigh* isnt' necessary.

Perhaps I didn't word it as well as I could have, but I think you will clearly see that I am suggesting that the story behind this one link is not the only time he has used the tank. It's actually quite infamous. You can find all the info you want from here.

Unless you're suggesting that lone police officers actually roam neighborhoods with the war weapon on the off chance that some Mexican shootout lands right on his head, there's still no valid reason for a city/county small time cop to have a war machine strapped to his vehicle. If that is that much of a regular problem, it's time to call in the feds.

That hasn't even touched the kinds of stuff freely available and sourced from his wikipedia page, either.

[Plaidman]

What are lifers learning? What are we teaching them? From what I can tell, most of the message seems to be "don't get caught."

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Gah... yeah true. Reminds me of that stupid law they pasted a while ago where child rapists can't get the death penality. They did it to prevent the rapists from freaking out and murdering their victims to not get caught.

I think a better way is to find a way to teach each criminal. Rehibilation doesn't work equally on all, just like being thrown in a cell doesn't work for all. People all react differently to their punishments. People can spend fifty years in a cell on their head and not learn a thing, where some cannot spend a day in it before they will never do what caused them to go in there in the first place again.

Unfortanlly it's just impossible to do so.

[Plaidman]

Unless you're suggesting that lone police officers actually roam neighborhoods with the war weapon on the off chance that some Mexican shootout lands right on his head, there's still no valid reason for a city/county small time cop to have a war machine strapped to his vehicle. If that is that much of a regular problem, it's time to call in the feds.

They don't keep it in a car, they keep it locked up for when they do need it. And again, it goes to this.

Shoot out with people with aka47s. What do you do? Call the feds and wait til they get there, which can take a few days, or do you go with your own backup, including SERT and using the weapon for defense?

It's a big gun for defense, that hasn't even been USED yet. Cops have automatical weapons too, they just don't need to use them and don't carry with them. It's stored up in a storage until they need it.

A *sigh* isnt' necessary.

Perhaps I didn't word it as well as I could have, but I think you will clearly see that I am suggesting that the story behind this one link is not the only time he has used the tank. It's actually quite infamous. You can find all the info you want from here.

And again, he isn't the only police person in the entire country to have a tank. Many many police agencies have tanks.

[Hyena Dandy]

I believe in rehabilitation. I believe the purpose of prison should be, rather than to punish, to make it so that the people who did their crimes won't do it again.

Obviously, that won't always work. But still, I think prisons should be at least reasonably comfortable. I think prisoners shouldn't be in amazingly pleasant acomadations (SP?), but they shouldn't feel humiliated either. I think using prisons as punishment and revenge is just going to create more criminals. I think that people should be given a chance to reform themselves. People take to prison different ways.

My ideal is that a prison should keep people in. It should provide an unpleasant, but reasonable, atmosphere. Making prisoners live in tents and wear pink is as unreasonable as putting them in five star rooms. I don't see what humiliating them is supposed to gain. I think, and this is just me basing on what I know about human nature not any studies so I may be wrong, that that just makes them more likely to commit crimes when they get out.

[Rageaholic]

Having only seen the inside of a prison once (A cub scout field trip in 3rd grade and that was a police station), I can't say for sure what prison is like.

What I do know is that prisons are packed because of silly non violent crimes like drugs and prostitution. It's been mentioned in this thread so I don't think I need to go too deep into this, but not all crimes are as serious as rape and murder. Those who rape, murder, and abuse others can FOAD; especially repeat offenders (though it should never come down to that). They are a danger to society and should be locked up, but there are many crimes that fail to make one dangerous. Prostitution? Drug dealing? How does that warrent being locked up? They're only hurting themselves! Not others. And don't get me started on truancy (why that is even a crime is beyond me). If we focus on the serious crimes that actually hurt other people in some way, than maybe we can cut down on prison expenses.

Unfortunately, you got instances like http://articles.cnn.com/2009-02-23/j...rs?_s=PM:CRIME in which those at the top benefit from arresting people. That may be a special case, but it does get you wondering.

[Plaidman]

Depends on the drug dealer on my opinion. There are those that do whatever it takes to get people hooked, though I highly doubt any are hiding in the bushes to jump at you with a needle to get you hooked. But there are those that paint the glorious world that is the use of drugs, they lie and cheat, and some even threaten to get people hooked. (Peer pressure counts). Yeah, it still fundimentally the drug user's fault, but the drug dealer gave the push.

If a dealer only sells to those that come to him/her, and they don't push it or sell to kids/disabled people that didn't know better, then whatever. One day he'll likely get killed in the business, but shouldn't rot in prison. The people made their choice if they go to him. (Make him pay taxes though...heh heh).


Prositution? Anyone that knows me already knows the fact that I'm a lonely miserable man who couldn't get a girlfriend, so my views on prostitution may be slewed. There is nothing wrong with it, if done right. Means no kids or disabled people, or people forced into it. Any person that chooses to be a prostitute, be it male or female, should be checked up regardly for STDs and such. Be taxed like the rest, etc. It really sucks, but for some people, the only way to get any kind of physical comfort, and I don't even mean the full act of sex, but just a body to sleep next too, or hug or cuddle, or go out on dates with, sometimes the only option people have is a call girl/boy, because no other person would willingly date them otherwise for various reasons. It's human nature to want to feel loved, and people get punished for it by using what may be their only option. Way to further damage people emontionally.

Murderers/Rapists:
Rapists shouldn't even be given any amount of respect. I don't mean statory rape. I mean the real bastards that force themselves onto a person who repeatedly shouts no, evne if a moment ago they say yes. No is no, means stop period. They took advantage of someone for their own sick comfort.

Murderers:
I don't belive in killing. No matter how much I hate someone, I can't see myself liking their death. And there are thousands of people that deserve it. But it doesn't teach them anything. You put a murderer to death, they get away. Put them in a cell, and give them some vitiams, water, and what food gives them their daily needed. Give them a book or two a month so they have some mental stimuation, least they go mad, and for visual record let them see any videos, or pictures, stories, people's account of every person they killed. Let their victims past be the only thing they know for the next decade. Let them truely live who they killed, so they know the person's life they took.

Self defense murder is a different matter of course, along with people put over the edge by someone abuse. But just straight up killing someone because they looked at you wrong, or they bumped your car, or they didn't hand over the money in the register fast enough for them (Or you just can't stand the idea of a witness) .... no. They made the choice.

No matter how hard life is, no matter how suck it is, there are always options to get by. It can be hard. Some people rob stores because they needed to feed their children. Well there are a million places to get food for your kids, without even having to sign up or even fill out paperwork. Hell, even stealing FOOD is more preferable, as you may buy sympathly from someone at that case because your truely are trying to feed your children, rather then stealing a tv or beer because hey, you need to buy food.

Not saying stealing is ok, but there are times where it may be needed to survive. But it is truely a last ditch effort, and money/beer/drugs/electronics are never ever ever ok.

[Gravekeeper]

Wait, he has a tank? And yeah, I've heard about how much of an arsehole that guy is even this far north.

But yeah, once Amnesty Internation is criticizing you, you've got a problem somewhere. He's also under investigation ( or has already been ruled against in several cases ) 8 ways from Sunday. Plus abusing funds, etc. Damn, this guy has been busy.

Ah, its not a tank its an APC....an....amphibious APC? What...also, a belt fed .50 cal machine gun? This is all military hardware. What the fark is going on down there? >.> Apparently he just randomly roams the border with it looking for Mexicans even though thats not his juristiction.

Niiiice. ( God damn lunatic ).

[Andara Bledin]

But there are those that paint the glorious world that is the use of drugs, they lie and cheat, and some even threaten to get people hooked. (Peer pressure counts). Yeah, it still fundimentally the drug user's fault, but the drug dealer gave the push.

They're selling a product, of course they're going to make it sound like the shit cures cancer. That's the job of advertising. If you can't resist advertising, you've got far bigger problems than drugs.

Oh, and if drugs were legal, then there wouldn't need to be pushers, and the ads would have to be factually correct or they'd be fined (yay, more revenue!).

Wait, he has a tank? And yeah, I've heard about how much of an arsehole that guy is even this far north.

Ah, its not a tank its an APC....an....amphibious APC? What...also, a belt fed .50 cal machine gun? This is all military hardware. What the fark is going on down there?

Actually, quite a number of police departments have former military equipment in their divisions. Turns out one bought an actual tank from mil surplus because it was cheaper than the $200,000.00 to replace some previous riot vehicle.

Niiiice. ( God damn lunatic ).

Oh, yeah. No doubt about that.

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[Racket_Man]

one of the things most of you fail to realize is this ---- how far our prision system has progressed since the 18th century

Hmmmm let us see

1. there are no longer debtors prisons (but is seems like it at some of our jobs)

2. in the 19th century there were Penetentiaries (drivied from the word Pentence yes in the Christian sense of the word just a lot more harsh htan 5 Hail Mary's for your "sin"). these nice little hellholes had NO heat, no running water, no in-cell toilet facilitities, no recreation facilities, no library (or any reading material except maybe the Bible), NO annenitites, food was whatever the warden decided to give you, no visitors, etc.. the convicts were REQUIRED to sit on the beds during the day keeping ABSOLUTELY silent (no talking singing, humming, etc.). this was to "facilitate" a "reflection" on the sin/crime you commited and make you aware that you should beg for forgiveness.

3. until somewhat recently rehabilitation has not been part of the prison equation. people have been sent to prison for punishment/socialital revenge only. and that my friends has created it own set of problems. stick someone in a hellhole and they will come out changed and not for the better most of the time.

4. prison environment reform. by this I mean sadistic prison personnel, chain gangs, forced labor (ie the rockpiles),

5. most of the "reforms" have only come within the last 30 or so years. things like libraries, work programs, literacy programs, school programs (as in GED, technical, art, etc), degree programs, serious counseling services, better health care (but I think some of the health care has gone a little too far such as sex change and the like)

"I'm sittin here on the Group W bench and you wanna know if I have reahabilitated myself and am moral enough to joiin the Army burn women kids houses and villages after being a litterbug????"

[Gravekeeper]

one of the things most of you fail to realize is this ---- how far our prision system has progressed since the 18th century

While interesting, that was completely irrelevant. Just because its better than it was in the 18th century doesn't mean what's being done now is ok. Especially in the case of Arizona, where he's violating the constitutional rights of prisoners and coming dangerously close to human rights abuses.

How far we've come doesn't excuse how far we still have to go.

[blas87]

And what many people have done to get themselves into prison isn't against humanity or civil rights *eyeroll*...........everyone is innocent or deserves to be treated with respect and comfort through such hard times. You want to see hard times, you can see what the family and the victim(s) go through, that is, if the victim even lives.

[Mikkel]

I don't know, it seems to me that if you treat people as animals you won't teach them any better. That may not matter in the case of lifers, they won't come back into society, but people who will return should learn to do better.
The Danish prisons are coddling the criminals compared to an American prison. Own room with TV and your own belongings, a right to paid work so you can buy your own food and cigarettes. You can find descriptions here together with reports some years back. You'll find that the statistics are a lot better than the American.