people who want to coddle criminals

[Gravekeeper]

And what many people have done to get themselves into prison isn't against humanity or civil rights *eyeroll*...........everyone is innocent or deserves to be treated with respect and comfort through such hard times. You want to see hard times, you can see what the family and the victim(s) go through, that is, if the victim even lives.

In many cases actually no, no it isn't. And yes, they do deserve some basic respect. Otherwise we are no better than they are and have no moral ground to condemn them from anyhow. No, we shouldn't coddle a rapist, but we shouldn't starve him, torture him or throw him in the same cell with some kid that got caught with a few joints, so he can rape *him*. This is why we have things like the Geneva Conventions, because we're *better* than that and should act like it.

If someone has a limited sentence, as in they will be getting out and rejoining society ( ie not a lifer ), then yes, we should be trying rehabilitation along with imprisonment. Otherwise they're just going to be even worse when they get out, and liable to do something to go right back in again. Only now you have yet another victim on top of wasting more time and money locking him up again.

Rehabilitation should be mandatory, and it should be directly tied to your sentence. Don't want to undergo rehabilitation? Well, fuck you then, you can stay in there longer. Actually want to make an effort to be a better person and become a contributing member of society? Then you get out on time or get parole earlier.

And before you go off on another biased tangent, I'm not referring to mass murderers, serial rapists, etc. You get life, you can stay in there for life.

[Gravekeeper]

The Danish prisons are coddling the criminals compared to an American prison. Own room with TV and your own belongings, a right to paid work so you can buy your own food and cigarettes..

See, that's too far. Own room fine ( That at least breaks up "prison culture" somewhat which makes rehabilitation even harder ), but no TV, no belongings. There should a library and there should be work programs so when you get out you can do something productive with your life and aren't just totally fucked. There should also be community service programs so you spend some of your time working on things that give back to the community you fucked over to begin with.

[Rageaholic]

Depends on the drug dealer on my opinion. There are those that do whatever it takes to get people hooked, though I highly doubt any are hiding in the bushes to jump at you with a needle to get you hooked. But there are those that paint the glorious world that is the use of drugs, they lie and cheat, and some even threaten to get people hooked. (Peer pressure counts). Yeah, it still fundimentally the drug user's fault, but the drug dealer gave the push.

If a dealer only sells to those that come to him/her, and they don't push it or sell to kids/disabled people that didn't know better, then whatever. One day he'll likely get killed in the business, but shouldn't rot in prison. The people made their choice if they go to him. (Make him pay taxes though...heh heh).

That's where the line should be imo. If the drug users are coercing others to use the drugs or putting any kind of preassure on them, they should at the very least be fined or at worst jailed (depending on the severity of it). But I've known people who have been arrested just for doing drugs. Their rights have been violated just because they were caught with the substance.

About prostitution, I believe that as long as it's two consenting adults, the government should stay out of it. Even if it's not two consenting adults (like teens), jail should not be the punishment for minors engaging in prostitution. Each case probably has different circumstances. For instance, what if the teen was abused by their pimp? Since prostitution is illegal, who would they go to for help? In that case, the pimp should be jailed for abuse and the minor should (at the very worst) be let off with a warning.

There are other crimes and things I haven't covered, but those are the two that come to mind. What I believe justice should come down to is punishing those who inflict direct harm onto other people and make sure they are unable to harm anyone else. Not punishing those who are only hurting themselves (which is not going to help anyone).

[Mikkel]

There should also be community service programs so you spend some of your time working on things that give back to the community you fucked over to begin with.

Community service exist as an alternative to prison.
What is maybe more alien to some of you is that many of the prisons are "open prisons". There are no fences, a prisoner can leave if they want to. The punishment, of course, is that when an escaped prisoner are caught again, they will go to a closed prison. They are only allowed to leave for work or education.

[Andara Bledin]

And what many people have done to get themselves into prison isn't against humanity or civil rights

So, since they did it first, doing it back doesn't count. 9.9

^-.-^

[Plaidman]

That's where the line should be imo. If the drug users are coercing others to use the drugs or putting any kind of preassure on them, they should at the very least be fined or at worst jailed (depending on the severity of it). But I've known people who have been arrested just for doing drugs. Their rights have been violated just because they were caught with the substance.

About prostitution, I believe that as long as it's two consenting adults, the government should stay out of it. Even if it's not two consenting adults (like teens), jail should not be the punishment for minors engaging in prostitution. Each case probably has different circumstances. For instance, what if the teen was abused by their pimp? Since prostitution is illegal, who would they go to for help? In that case, the pimp should be jailed for abuse and the minor should (at the very worst) be let off with a warning.

There are other crimes and things I haven't covered, but those are the two that come to mind. What I believe justice should come down to is punishing those who inflict direct harm onto other people and make sure they are unable to harm anyone else. Not punishing those who are only hurting themselves (which is not going to help anyone).

Exactly what I said. Drug pushers should be punished, while drug suppliers that sell only to those who choose to use it themselves, nether should be punished. One isn't forcing the other to use, and the other does have the right to do to their body what they want, as long as they don't harm others for it. Same with prositutions. If its by consenting adults? Let them. For some people, it may be the only way to get any amount of affection.

[blas87]

Biased tangent? Speak for yourselves. The "we're better than that" argument holds no water with me because yes, we are better than them, without having to proudly proclaim it. Anyone who isn't a criminal is "better than that" all by themselves. You don't have beat your chest with me about how we're better than torturing criminals and being violent. Yes, we are better than that. We're better than all of the people who chose a life of crime. You don't have to do a damn thing or say anything to be better.

If we're supposed to be such a progressive and "better than that" country, why are people still coming out of the woodwork committing murder, rape, child molestation? As time goes on, the criminal justice system progresses, but the crimes themselves don't. People argue that the way some prisons/jails are run are behind the times/barbaric............and the crimes committed against the victims are supposed to be fluffy? Even if nowadays instead of hanging people from trees/stoning them/cutting their intestines out, people are shot, run over, stabbed, choked, thrown off of buildings, dead bodies hidden in the woods.....come on now, if we're supposed to be so progressive and "better than that", why are there still people in society like that?

They don't belong in society. They need to be out of society.

[Gravekeeper]

That's...the exact tangent I'm talking about, you didn't even read the entire sentence. Though, I'm not exactly sure what your point is this time around either.

I'm also not sure what this woodwork you speak of is, seeing as violent crime rates in the US have been dropping for something like 15 years now. You have the highest rate of incarceration in the *world*, but 57% of everyone in your jails is in there for drug offences alone. Not violent crime.

And you better damn well believe we're progressive these days compared to ages past. To believe otherwise is to, quite frankly, show a staggering lack of knowledge of history.

[Plaidman]

In major agreement with Blas.

Especally after now these days, many criminals have their own unique rights and protections, like child rapists don't have to fear the death penaty anymore.

[Boozy]

Drug pushers should be punished, while drug suppliers that sell only to those who choose to use it themselves, nether should be punished.

This part is unclear to me. Pushers should be punished and suppliers should not? Or neither?

Incidentally, pushers work for suppliers. 100% of the time.

[Cheshire]

This would fail to be an issue if corporal punishment was instated.

Instead of paying for someone to be jailed for twenty years, one could simply flog the bottom of their feet a dozen times.

Pain is always a higher deterrent than a timeout.

[Plaidman]

This part is unclear to me. Pushers should be punished and suppliers should not? Or neither?

Incidentally, pushers work for suppliers. 100% of the time.

Ok, I'll try to make it more clear.


Man goes to person, be it kid/disabled/fully functional of every gender, and says

1: "Take this. This is great. It'll change your life! Forever!"
2: "If you don't take this, I'll beat/rape/kill you"
Or really, anything at all that would make a person to choose to take the drug that he or she would under normal chances never take by his/her own choice, should be thrown in prison. This is a drug pusher.

Meanwhile

Person is at home/place of business. Door rings, and he/she answers it. Some idiot is ether shilvering like a mad man and begging for his/her drug of choice, or reeking of weed, or even acting normal. He or she needs his fix. He pays X dollars, drug supplier gives drug and shuts the door. X money goes to goverment, the drug user gets his drug by CHOICE rather then by FORCE. The drug supplier did nothing at all to make anyone take a drug that they wouldn't have done otherwise. No advertising, no forcing etc. People went to them for it. They shouldn't be punished. They're basically a service.

People that are addicted to drugs, with the amount of information out there know that they can get clean and choose not to face that battle to get clean for various reasons. It's their own bodies they're wracking, and it's their families sorrow and anger they have to face. It is not a drug suppliers promblem or guilt if another person wants to ruin their lives.

You don't blame a gun shop owner if someone kills someone using one of their guns or bullets, you blame the person that used it.


More clear?

(the nether in my op post was refering to the drug suppliers and drug users. They made their choices willfully and by their own choice. Why be punished if it doesn't bring harm to others who don't choose it).

[Bronzebow]

Biased tangent? Speak for yourselves. The "we're better than that" argument holds no water with me because yes, we are better than them, without having to proudly proclaim it. Anyone who isn't a criminal is "better than that" all by themselves. You don't have beat your chest with me about how we're better than torturing criminals and being violent. Yes, we are better than that. We're better than all of the people who chose a life of crime. You don't have to do a damn thing or say anything to be better.

1.) I repeat this again: We are at a time in this world and with our species where violent crime, worldwide, independent of race or religion or sex or country of origin, is sharply down. We are in one of--if not, THE--most peaceful times we have known as a species in recorded history. This "coming out of the woodwork" deal is fear mongering hyperbole suffering from the Mean World Syndrome. It gets tiring hearing about all the rapists and pedophiles and terrorists hiding in your bushes. That couldn't be any farther from the truth.

2.) How does the "we're better than that" argument not hold water? That doesn't make any sense, and I'm not certain you're understanding what that means in context. Are you saying that you're cool with petty thieves, or even murderers getting tortured, mistreated, or left to rot? If you are cool with that, then you really are not better than them. No really...you wouldn't be. The whole basis of a criminal justice system relies on the fact--or maybe the misplaced notion--that we are supposed to be better than those we punish, or else there is no point in law at all. Criminals would be prosecuting criminals, and knee-jerk pitchfork mobs would rule the streets. If you are willing to mistreat those classes of people, then you are those classes of people. You would become that which you hate.

You can't just think that you're better by sitting back in your chair with an iced tea in hand. It doesn't work that way. You have to actively be better, or at least not passively think that "they deserve it."

3.) Minor point, but everyone is a criminal. I'm not being cute. I'm serious. We have so many vapid, poorly written, and vague laws that everyone without question could be charged with any number of offenses for normal every day life. In a lot of cases, the only difference is that you didn't happen to get on the bad side of some cop or judge or city council member and didn't have to learn that first hand.

...gee, I wonder why we have the highest incarceration rate in the world.

[Gravekeeper]

In major agreement with Blas.

Especally after now these days, many criminals have their own unique rights and protections, like child rapists don't have to fear the death penaty anymore.

I'm not sure what you mean by "these days". Rape hasn't been punishable by death in the US since 1977. Louisiana tried to challenge it with a death penalty for child rapists, but it was struck down by the supreme court.

Plus, believe it or not, not every country uses capital punishment. Canada certainly doesn't. In fact the company the US keeps by maintaining the death penalty isn't exactly that great to be honest ( China, Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, North Korea ).

[Boozy]

More clear?

Yes, thanks.

But I do think it needs to be recognized that pushers work for the dealers. The job of a pusher is to get people in their dealer's neighbourhood hooked so eventually they are the ones who are approaching the dealer.

Most major dealers will have pushers working for them. The pushers are often addicts themselves who have started working for their drugs.