Willful Ignorance

[Pedersen]

Dunno... yet.... (although, it's pretty unlikely that I'll 'learn' what it's like to be pregnant... subjective experience is always a learning mode). Although, by the definition provided, that has nothing to do with intellectual ability, but physical (assuming the 2 are indeed different... what's the nature of the mind?...).

Damn... Now that could be an interesting question to ponder. What is the nature of intelligence itself.... Well, would you prefer to start that new thread, or should I?

... your hypothetical... you come to a new country, about the first thing you find out is its laws! (maybe only shortly after its language).

Hmm, I'm not so sure. You see, it's also in human nature to believe that the people around you behave/act as you do. Extrapolating outwards, it's easy to believe that the laws of a new country are substantially similar to the laws of the country you came from, and that as long as you don't flagrantly violate those laws, you are likely to be okay.

It's a bad assumption, but it's an easy one to make.

Of course I may have the 'particular case' but if I am wrong you can correct me.

Whether you are right or wrong is irrelevant. That question was discussed in that thread.

On review, I realize that it could look like I accidentally hit submit, when I meant to continue. It was not an accident.

[ebonyknight]

Whether you are right or wrong is irrelevant. That question was discussed in that thread.

On review, I realize that it could look like I accidentally hit submit, when I meant to continue. It was not an accident.

You lost me. I have no idea what you are talking about.




Again (it didn't come out right the first time), assuming that the particular case you were speaking of was me, the question was not answered before you melted down.

I wanted to know what "black-only" scholarships people were talking about. That is SPECIFIC information, not broad as you contend.

Why, because people can sometimes get the information wrong. And what happened? Exactly that. Someone called the UNCF a "black-only" scholarship, when it's not.

You can't have a discussion with bad information. Garbage in, garbage out. Where was the "willful ignorance", there?

[ebonyknight]

Uh, ebonyknight, I think you're taking it a little personally. Other people have done it too. I know I have, and it caused some confusion and frustration until I clarified.

Pedersen isn't just referring to you. It's a general annoyance that happens from time to time.

Well, he didn't seem to deny it.

[Pedersen]

Well, he didn't seem to deny it.

Nor did I confirm it. I stated that it was irrelevant. And that is all I have to say on that.

[MadMike]

This is why there are still people making a big deal about Obama's middle name being Hussein.

That one annoys me as well. He has no control over what his parents named him.

Ignorance and stupidity are two different animals.

Exactly. It's just like a teacher of mine once said: There's a difference between being ignorant, and just plain stupid.

[AFPheonix]

That one annoys me as well. He has no control over what his parents named him.

Even beyond that, it's not a bad name. It's just people's racism that cause them to be suspicious of a fairly common middle eastern name. That's what bothers me the most about it.

[MystyGlyttyr]

Oh, oh, I have a stupid!

I can NOT be taught to drive a stick shift.

I'm not kidding. At least half a dozen people have tried over a decade. I've probably put a few thousand man-hours into trying to coordinate all four limbs at the same time to make the car run. With only one notable fluke where the car very nearly went into orbit (it turns out pushing the gas pedal to the floor and popping the clutch does bad things), I have never been able to shift gears, brake, etc., without killing the car. ANY car. We've tried three different ones. I've nearly destroyed at least one.

So, I would put forth in that area, I am in fact, stupid. Whoo!

And freely admit to it because holy crap if I can concentrate well enough to throw someone on my shoulder and then spin them and toss them to the ground, I should be able to get stick shifts at least once out of every ten tries or so, but nope.

[AFPheonix]

I had trouble with manuals until I learned how to ride a motorcycle. One I got the feel down on the bike, it transferred easily to a car.

[Seshat]

As you can see, my definition of ignorant fits very well with the accepted definition of ignorant.

Also, my definition of stupid agrees with one half of the definition of stupid; namely, the half which states "poor learning abilities". I am more strict than others, so if I say that someone is stupid, others will know a more generalized version of what I am talking about, and be able to agree or disagree with me. No communication loss actually occurs there.

I choose not to like the other half of the definition of stupid (the part which says "unwillingness to properly consider the relevant information"), because there are two separate items occurring there. On the one hand, you have people who are incapable of taking in the information for whatever reason. The only reason not to like calling them stupid is because stupid is considered an insult, and they don't deserve to be insulted.

The "willfully ignorant" phrase is the phrase I've coined, personally, for the people who are unwilling to properly consider the relevant information. It's a more descriptive phrase, and communicates what I mean more precisely than to call someone stupid.

Pederson's definitions mesh precisely with the definitions I - and my circle of friends - have been using for years. Many years before I even heard about this website.

And yes, I detest willful ignorance, but am perfectly fine with general ignorance.

I'm also fine with people whose attitude is 'I don't know, but I'll hire an expert and let them deal with it': for instance, getting a plumber to fix their pipes, or a roofer to fix their roof, or a programmer to write their program.

I do, however, expect those people to accept the limitations of their knowledge and LET the expert do the job - but that's a different matter.

Add in one other thing: I don't believe in stupid of the variety where someone is incapable of learning something. I really don't believe it exists. There are people who are hard to teach, yes. But if a person wishes to learn something, they can learn it. I may not be able to teach them. In fact, no one may be able to teach them right now, because no one has figured out a way, but that way does exist. If a person wishes to learn something, they can learn it. They might never be able to perform it well, but they can understand it.

How much experience do you have with the intellectually disabled? I've known a couple of them. In my estimation, they could, with enough effort put in, probably learn simple algebra: the sort of algebra that gets presented to primary school children with triangles or squares or circles for the missing numbers, and only one operand in the equation (other than the = sign).

As a great achievement - a Nobel-prize or Olympic-Gold-Medal amount of effort - they might eventually manage to simultaneously solve two equations. It'd probably take their whole lives to reach that level of achievement.

I don't say this to belittle them! Their minds are handicapped, just as my body is. It's just life, just the luck of biological die rolls, and doesn't affect their (or my) value as a person.

I believe there's another kind of inability to learn, one which hasn't been taken into account in this discussion yet (that I'm aware of, anyway - I haven't read the whole discussion, I'll admit).

I believe that everyone's mind is slightly different. My best friend thinks in pictures. I think in abstract concepts. Some things that are easy for her - such as pattern recognition or facial recognition - are almost impossible for me. Some things that are easy for me - such as N-dimensional arrays - are almost impossible for her.

So when someone hears about the things I can do (programming, writing books and being published, etc) and acts awed, I just smile and tell them 'maybe, but I'd be horrible at <whatever they do for a living>'. I firmly believe that everyone has types of knowledge or types of thinking they're good at, and types they're bad at.

So there's another kind of 'stupidity' aka inability or difficulty learning: some people have more trouble learning Thing X than others do. In some cases, this trouble is so great it becomes an inability, even though the person may be perfectly capable of learning Thing Y.