It's not American anymore

[ChynaRose]

So where does loving anime = hating America/American things?

[Nekojin]

So where does loving anime = hating America/American things?

If I understood correctly, imitating or emulating another culture's art style is somehow disrespecting one's own culture. I'm missing a few links in that chain, though. And never mind that it ends up being circular, when you realize that modern anime was effectively inspired by DisneyCorp.

[Gravekeeper]

Shows with quality writing and animation like Batman: The Animated Series and Dexter's Lab have been the exception rather than the rule for over a decade.

Spiderman, X-Men, Exosquad, Ren & Stimpy, Tiny Toons, Animaniacs, Power Puff Girls, Gargoyles, Reboot, Beast Wars, Futurama, Pinky & The Brain, The Tick, Swat Kats, Rocko's Modern Life, War Planets, Freakazoid, Earthworm Jim, Cadillacs & Dinosaurs, Invader Zim, My Life As A Teenage Robot, Avatar, Legend of Kora, Transformers Prime, My Little Pony, Goof Troop, TMNT, Talespin, Darkwing Duck, Mighty Max, etc etc etc etc

Yeah, Western animation has just been in a death spiral since the end of the 80s. >.>

And while some shows have clever writing to offset the lack of animation quality (the aforementioned South Park, for example), often times it's coupled with extremely crude and low-brow humor.

Like...90% of the anime produced in Japan? Awful stilted body animation, terrible CGI crowd shots, swappable facial animation, the same cliched characters and jokes recycled ad naseum, the panty shots, accidental walk ins, "hilarious" awkward girl on guy fall downs, accidental breast gropes, flamboyantly gay comic relief character, violent girls beating up guys, etc etc?

Most anime is total shit. It just has an elevated perception of quality because shit isn't worth sending overseas. Japan produces the vast majority of the world's animation. Like 95% of it. Out of that 95%, a handful make it to the west. When you look at it as a ratio vs the amount produced, anime is terrible. For every Moribito there's 50 "Same 5 girl personalities flash their panties and have whacky adventures". For every Honey & Clover there's 50 "Most pathetic boy in the universe ends up with sexiest girlfriend on the planet. Its funny because its awkward!".

Japan recycles more cliches, characters and plots than Hollywood ever could.

Oh, and Evangelion is an awful, confused, perverted mess of a show that falls completely apart. No kids should be watching it. Unless I missed the scene in Dexter's Lab where he whacks off in a hospital room to a comatose neighbourhood girl. ;p

[HYHYBT]

I have to point out that much of that list is in fact "over a decade" old, and I'm pretty sure a couple of those are from the 80's.

And some of them probably wouldn't seem as good if you were watching them for the first time now.

[Hyena Dandy]

The "Americans who don't like their country" It's a lot higher than you'd think from the stereotype. According to something I read, America's middle-of-the-road for people who think that they have the best country (it was limited to developed nations.) I think Canada was the highest and Russia was the lowest.

If I understood correctly, imitating or emulating another culture's art style is somehow disrespecting one's own culture. I'm missing a few links in that chain, though. And never mind that it ends up being circular, when you realize that modern anime was effectively inspired by DisneyCorp.

Yeah, I think you're missing the annoying anime fans. There's the "Everything Japanese is better" ones and the "I like anime" fans. People who just like anime aren't disrespecting American culture. But there are the suburban teens who think anything American is horrible and uncultured compared to the great Japanese.

I think that Jackfaire is saying that the Teen Titans being in an animesque style was to attempt to appeal to those people.

I think I'd have to disagree with him on that, though. The ones who are so concerned with things not being American wouldn't be fans of the Teen Titans animesque show because it wouldn't be Japanese enough. Perhaps a few would watch it, but that seems unlikely to me that they'd be swayed by the animation.

I'd say that that style of half-anime that was used in the show allows a lot wider, more exaggerated expression than the standard American cartoons.

Finally, anime has been sort of becoming a part of American animation for quite a while. There's clear anime INFLUENCES in a lot of stuff, including Batman Beyond or My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. Saying "This is kinda Anime-y, must be because they want to get those America-hating anime fans*" seems off to me. I think it was done that way because it was done that way. Because that fit what they were going for.

*Again, not saying that all anime fans are america-hating. Just that the anime fans that htey're hypothetically 'going for' are.

[SongsOfDragons]

Oh, and Evangelion is an awful, confused, perverted mess of a show that falls completely apart. No kids should be watching it. Unless I missed the scene in Dexter's Lab where he whacks off in a hospital room to a comatose neighbourhood girl. ;p

I fast-forwarded to the bits where it was giant organic armoured mecha beating up monsters (or vice-verse ) and ignored all the dreadful awkward...well the rest of the show really. Also the only means I had of watching it was subbed on You Tube...

I couldn't watch The Last Airbender because I couldn't bear the stupid puerile humour even though the story was good. Each to their own. I did love Teen Titans when it was on, and Justice League, and definitely Samurai Jack ^^ The last cartoon I was really into was Danny Phantom for a time...

Did anyone ever watch Sharkey and George? It was brilliant, awful but brilliant. And it was French originally. It always began with "Seacago, Seacago the City of X. Renowned throughout the Seven Seas of the X-iest City of the Deep." ^^

[Bloodsoul]

All of this time I thought I was the only one who remembered Mighty Max!

[jackfaire]

So where does loving anime = hating America/American things?

When the people I knew that professed a love anime said verbally and literally and in a way that cannot be confused, "Anime rocks American culture sucks I hate being American I wish I was Japanese"

I am not making a leap that people loved anime so they must have hated America.

It's what many of them actually said. It was so widespread it was almost the oath of the Anime club. Most of the time you got one of them talking about how much they love Anime it flowed into how much they love Japan and how much they think America sucks.

I am not putting words into their mouths and I am not making assumptions based on their love of anime. I am basing it entirely on how many of them espoused hatred of their own country.

[Hyena Dandy]

When the people I knew that professed a love anime said verbally and literally and in a way that cannot be confused, "Anime rocks American culture sucks I hate being American I wish I was Japanese"

Yeah.

See, there are THOSE people, and then there are just, well, anime fans. It's not that people who like anime hate America. Just that some people who do hate America.

Two of my friends from Highschool were like that. They grew out of it.

If there's an anime 'club,' you're probably at a highschool or a college. Perhaps you'd find more, well, sane Anime fans out in the rest of the world.

[Nekojin]

Spiderman, X-Men, Exosquad, Ren & Stimpy, Tiny Toons, Animaniacs, Power Puff Girls, Gargoyles, Reboot, Beast Wars, Futurama, Pinky & The Brain, The Tick, Swat Kats, Rocko's Modern Life, War Planets, Freakazoid, Earthworm Jim, Cadillacs & Dinosaurs, Invader Zim, My Life As A Teenage Robot, Avatar, Legend of Kora, Transformers Prime, My Little Pony, Goof Troop, TMNT, Talespin, Darkwing Duck, Mighty Max, etc etc etc etc

Yeah, Western animation has just been in a death spiral since the end of the 80s. >.>

I never said that there weren't any good cartoons or animated shows at all. Just that the crap outnumbers the good stuff. Most of the titles on your list there are, in fact, some of the ones that I personally love.

But for every Gargoyles, Reboot, or Avatar, you get many more shows like CatDog, Ed Edd & Eddy, Captain Planet, The Mask*, 12 oz Mouse, or Loonatics. And if we're going back into the 80's, I'd add execrable shows like Rubik the Amazing Cube, Bigfoot and the Muscle Machines, and Pac-Man.

* The Mask, as an animated show, completely missed the point of both the original comic and the movie that it was based on. It was a terrible, soulless franchise cash-in.

Like...90% of the anime produced in Japan? Awful stilted body animation, terrible CGI crowd shots, swappable facial animation, the same cliched characters and jokes recycled ad naseum, the panty shots, accidental walk ins, "hilarious" awkward girl on guy fall downs, accidental breast gropes, flamboyantly gay comic relief character, violent girls beating up guys, etc etc?

Most anime is total shit. It just has an elevated perception of quality because shit isn't worth sending overseas. Japan produces the vast majority of the world's animation. Like 95% of it. Out of that 95%, a handful make it to the west. When you look at it as a ratio vs the amount produced, anime is terrible. For every Moribito there's 50 "Same 5 girl personalities flash their panties and have whacky adventures". For every Honey & Clover there's 50 "Most pathetic boy in the universe ends up with sexiest girlfriend on the planet. Its funny because its awkward!".

Japan recycles more cliches, characters and plots than Hollywood ever could.

I even agreed that most of the Japanese shows are crap, so I don't know what the contention here is.

Oh, and Evangelion is an awful, confused, perverted mess of a show that falls completely apart. No kids should be watching it. Unless I missed the scene in Dexter's Lab where he whacks off in a hospital room to a comatose neighbourhood girl. ;p

Unless you're actually arguing that all animation is (or should be) suitable for children, I'm not sure of the point you're making here. Evangelion was a hugely popular psycho-drama, and was most certainly was not aimed at "kids." I don't like it, personally, but I do recognize the significant impact that it's had on Japanese animated storytelling techniques. I can respect what it brings to the table while still holding my nose at it (much like Akira - I can acknowledge its greatness, while still disliking it).

[Nekojin]

When the people I knew that professed a love anime said verbally and literally and in a way that cannot be confused, "Anime rocks American culture sucks I hate being American I wish I was Japanese"

I am not making a leap that people loved anime so they must have hated America.

It's what many of them actually said. It was so widespread it was almost the oath of the Anime club. Most of the time you got one of them talking about how much they love Anime it flowed into how much they love Japan and how much they think America sucks.

I am not putting words into their mouths and I am not making assumptions based on their love of anime. I am basing it entirely on how many of them espoused hatred of their own country.

It's a phase that younger people go through, disrespecting things that they used to like. It's a form of identity-seeking, by defining what you're NOT (in the form of disrespecting things that don't perfectly fit your self-image). For most people, it'll pass.

When I was in high school, I went through a phase of thinking that all animated shows were for kids (as in, pre-teens, and I was a TEENAGER now), and not worth my time. This, while I was reading X-Men and a bunch of other comic books. I changed my tune once a friend opened my eyes with a comic tie-in to a new animated show of the time... called Macross. Or Robotech, as most people know it.

[Gravekeeper]

I have to point out that much of that list is in fact "over a decade" old, and I'm pretty sure a couple of those are from the 80's.

Nope, that was mid 90s onward and into the 2000s. The same era as the anime examples given against them.

I'd say that that style of half-anime that was used in the show allows a lot wider, more exaggerated expression than the standard American cartoons.

Yep. The only thing western animation has really taken from eastern styles is using larger, more expressive faces for humanoid characters. Western animation still kicks Eastern out of the park when it comes to body expression and animation. As well as any other sort of character outside of human or humanoid.

Eastern animation has been traditionally focused on the face and facial expression. Western on the body and physical expression. They have different roots. Japanese animation focused on what the characters were saying and feeling. They couldn't afford cel animation early on so body movement was difficult and awful looking. Western animation focused on what characters were doing. Primarily physical comedy, slapstick and over expressive wackiness. Ala Looney Toons.

They've been taking influence from each other's strengths ever since, really. Western animation has been using larger, more expressive faces. Though without resorting to massive disproportion like anime. While Eastern animation has been bringing in more physical action and expression.

On both sides, you get rare shows where they combine a high quality of both categories and those are the ones that get lauded.

I couldn't watch The Last Airbender because I couldn't bear the stupid puerile humour even though the story was good.

Really? Sure, Aang's hijinks were generally aimed at the kids, he was the char they were suppose to relate too. But there was stuff aimed higher too and a lot of stuff that just worked universally. Like the foaming mouth guy or the science vs religion jokes. >.>

Avatar had great comedic timing. Especially with the dialogue. Much to my surprise when I watched it.

All of this time I thought I was the only one who remembered Mighty Max!

Use to love Mighty Max <3

When the people I knew that professed a love anime said verbally and literally and in a way that cannot be confused, "Anime rocks American culture sucks I hate being American I wish I was Japanese"

Ah......them. Please don't confuse them with the majority of anime fans. That segment is.....special and self deluded. They're the ones that think they're going to find a slavishly devoted beautiful girlfriend in a magic box in the attic some day. >.>

I never said that there weren't any good cartoons or animated shows at all. Just that the crap outnumbers the good stuff. Most of the titles on your list there are, in fact, some of the ones that I personally love.

The crap outnumbers the good stuff on both sides. Hell, its the same in every form of media. I'm just pointing out that western animation still has shows with good writing and storytelling. Contrary to what you were saying initially.

I even agreed that most of the Japanese shows are crap, so I don't know what the contention here is.

You were making an argument for one being superior to the other, and slogging on Adventure Time in the process. >.> Adventure Time is.....in its own little world, ala Ren & Stimpy. Its the other way around, Adventure Time is triggering net memes.

Unless you're actually arguing that all animation is (or should be) suitable for children, I'm not sure of the point you're making here. Evangelion was a hugely popular psycho-drama, and was most certainly was not aimed at "kids."

Let me just replay your own words:

Compare that against anime shows like Outlaw Star, Tenchi Muyo, and Evangelion, and is it any wonder that some kids choose to "go Japanese" exclusively?

>.>

[Nekojin]

The crap outnumbers the good stuff on both sides. Hell, its the same in every form of media. I'm just pointing out that western animation still has shows with good writing and storytelling. Contrary to what you were saying initially.

Actually, please go back and reread what I said initially. I did, in fact, say that the crap outnumbered the good stuff on both sides. We're in violent agreement, apparently. =^_^=

You were making an argument for one being superior to the other, and slogging on Adventure Time in the process. >.> Adventure Time is.....in its own little world, ala Ren & Stimpy. Its the other way around, Adventure Time is triggering net memes.

I wasn't actually saying one was superior - I was pointing out how some people can choose to view anime as superior. I went through that phase, buying raw episodes of Ranma 1/2 in Little Tokyo a week after they aired in Japan, and largely ignoring the quality works that were coming out stateside. I was wrong then. Neither is innately superior. Pick the cream of all crops, rather than trying to declare one "side" a winner in an artificially-divided category. Many "western" shows are animated in Korea, Hong Kong, and other Asian countries... just like many "Japanese" shows.

Let me just replay your own words:

Sure. Now take your spin back off them, and read what I wrote.

SOME kids choose to view Anime as superior. They see the crap coming out over here, dismiss the good stuff as "it must be crap too", and latch on something that appeals to them. And because it's foreign, that adds extra appeal. It's easy to see why that is, even if the underlying logic is eyeroll-worthy.

And yes, I did say, "some kids." Just because something isn't aimed at kids, that doesn't mean that they won't watch it. Some will watch it just because it's "adult."

Edit: Taking my own advice, I went back and reread my own first post here. It does come off a lot harsher and more slanted than I intended it. Apologies for that.

[Andara Bledin]

Nope, that was mid 90s onward and into the 2000s. The same era as the anime examples given against them.

Um, the mid-90s are "over a decade old."

Feel free to feel old, now. I know I do.

^-.-^

[Nekojin]

Allow me a moment to try to remove my foot from my mouth a bit, and rephrase my original point in a bit clearer context.

When you're immersed in a culture (or sub-culture), it can be very easy to lose sight of the good things in that culture, and focus on the crap. Very easy, because the crap usually outnumbers the gems by an order of magnitude.

So when someone (typically a kid, because most people lose interest in animation during their teen years) is already grumpy about how bad their options are (or, more accurately, how bad they perceive them to be), it's easy to latch onto some gems from a different but similar subculture. American fans who get depressed about the Captain Planets and American Dragon: Jake Longs stop noticing things like Freakazoid, and when someone dangles something like Cowboy Bebop, they get hooked - and turn their back on any chance of noticing the good things that are already around them.

You want to know one of the biggest differences between popular anime and popular western cartoons? Most western cartoons are episodic in nature, with events from one episode rarely being reflected ever again (aside from season openers and finales), while most Japanese cartoons are serial in nature (with the occasional episodic "filler" episode). Note that I'm not saying that either side is solely one or the other, just that there's a tendency there, and that is one of the key features that make some people dismiss American shows in favor of Japanese shows.

Want one huge example of that? Dragonball Z*. Simultaneously one of the most-loved and most-hated anime shows ever. How did it hook so many kids if it was so terrible? The answer is straightforward - you got attached to the characters because what happened to them didn't get erased at the end of the episode. Things changed from show to show, and characters died (a rarity in Western animation at that time). And the reason that it's hated is that the production company went too far with it, and drew out some of the scenes far longer than reasonable (one scene in particular, a couple of chapters in the manga, is an entire season in the animation - and it spans about 15 minutes for 23 episodes).

*I'm a fan of Akira Toriyama's work. The original Dragonball (no Z) is hilarious. And the manga of DBZ is very entertaining. And shorter.